Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
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Uncooperative ATC in certain parts of the world.
In some areas of the world, ATC are uncooperative to requests for deviate around WX.
The reply is negative or standby! These ATC units are still operating 1980s separation rules even though they have ADS.
Several times I've had to tell ATC that we are deviating. We have TCAS displays that can show if a conflict would occur.
Pilots need to be trained to be more assertive in communications with ATC in these situations.
The reply is negative or standby! These ATC units are still operating 1980s separation rules even though they have ADS.
Several times I've had to tell ATC that we are deviating. We have TCAS displays that can show if a conflict would occur.
Pilots need to be trained to be more assertive in communications with ATC in these situations.
Last edited by Capt Groper; 22nd Jan 2015 at 08:27. Reason: grammar
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" HarryMann's equal opportunity?
Not in my book! In this case consider the water entry speed of each scenario.
Compressed can or can more or less in pre-entry shape. A spiral quite often above VNE with a very high ROD; a stall, relatively low IAS coupled with a relatively lower ROD due total surface drag. But is there a third option? Perhaps a partially recovered spiral and almost under control on entry??
Compressed can or can more or less in pre-entry shape. A spiral quite often above VNE with a very high ROD; a stall, relatively low IAS coupled with a relatively lower ROD due total surface drag. But is there a third option? Perhaps a partially recovered spiral and almost under control on entry??
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8/8ths
Quite possible given the damage to the undertail section but there can (IMHO) be no doubt he was in a flat or spiral with little or no elevator or rudder control. As to the thrust and trim position, only time will tell. You may well be right that he simply ran out of altitude during a partial recovery.
Quite possible given the damage to the undertail section but there can (IMHO) be no doubt he was in a flat or spiral with little or no elevator or rudder control. As to the thrust and trim position, only time will tell. You may well be right that he simply ran out of altitude during a partial recovery.
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According to Detik.com, this data plot was received by a reporter from someone in the Department of Transportation. The plot shows the climb from FL320 at time 23:17:1.7889 to FL373.5 at time 23:17:43.210 (ie a climb of 5350 ft in about 41.4 seconds) with a turn to the left. End of detection was at FL240 at time 23:19:46.352 in what looks to be a spiral or spin?
Source: Detik.com
Source: Detik.com
From FL240 to the whitecaps was then approx three and half minutes during which time they traversed approx 1 nautical mile.
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Dave
Correct. But I do not believe that in the absence of any advance upon Singapore or retreat to Surabaya he decided to conduct a joy flight over Borneo in the intervening minutes.
Correct. But I do not believe that in the absence of any advance upon Singapore or retreat to Surabaya he decided to conduct a joy flight over Borneo in the intervening minutes.
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In the Straitstimes website there is a report from 8.51am today in which there is a statement:
"The plane climbed steeply very rapidly but its crash was not due to icing, said Mr Tatang Kurniadi, the chief of the agency investigating the accident, in debunking an earlier suggestion.
"No similarity with Air France 447. No indication (of icing)," Mr Tatang, who heads the National Transportation Safety Committee, said on Jan 21 during a discussion on aviation safety with foreign journalists."
"The plane climbed steeply very rapidly but its crash was not due to icing, said Mr Tatang Kurniadi, the chief of the agency investigating the accident, in debunking an earlier suggestion.
"No similarity with Air France 447. No indication (of icing)," Mr Tatang, who heads the National Transportation Safety Committee, said on Jan 21 during a discussion on aviation safety with foreign journalists."
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Another plot from ADS-B data that's circulating on twitter. Not sure of the accuracy of the rates of descent but with such tight turns and bank angles, can we assume they were no longer in normal law?
It would be great if someone can overlay the weather for this time frame at these coordinates.
Source: Twitter
It would be great if someone can overlay the weather for this time frame at these coordinates.
Source: Twitter
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From air net
_
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6991 posts, RR: 78
Reply 181, posted Wed Jan 21 2015 23:30:32 your local time (7 hours 46 minutes 55 secs ago) and read 4154 times:
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 164):
Regarding the continuous left turn, and reversion to alternate law, there were reports a number of years ago of FAC (flight augmentation computer) faults on A320s resulting in "runaway" rudder trim. From Youtube (not "runaway", but ...
My understanding (Pihero, Mandala499 correct me if I'm wrong) is that FAC failure will also result in a reversion to Alternate2, with a number of protections being lost.
You got something there...
Ironically a local media called me today and asked about MELs related to:
AUTO FLT RUD TRV LIM (and 2)
ELAC 1 FAULT
Rudder travel limiter 2 fault identification and MEL Cat C allowances
AUTO FLT RUD TRV LIM SYS
FAC 2 FAULT
This... they said was from the aircraft's write up...
Quoting Pihero (Reply 168):
"Safety Recommendation 2010-092
It is recommended that Airbus alert all operators of A320-series aircraft of the possibility that an electrical power generation system fault may not be clearly annunciated on the ECAM, and may lead to uncommanded rudder trim operation.",
Uncommanded rudder command or rudder trim is being suspected.
_
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6991 posts, RR: 78
Reply 181, posted Wed Jan 21 2015 23:30:32 your local time (7 hours 46 minutes 55 secs ago) and read 4154 times:
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 164):
Regarding the continuous left turn, and reversion to alternate law, there were reports a number of years ago of FAC (flight augmentation computer) faults on A320s resulting in "runaway" rudder trim. From Youtube (not "runaway", but ...
My understanding (Pihero, Mandala499 correct me if I'm wrong) is that FAC failure will also result in a reversion to Alternate2, with a number of protections being lost.
You got something there...
Ironically a local media called me today and asked about MELs related to:
AUTO FLT RUD TRV LIM (and 2)
ELAC 1 FAULT
Rudder travel limiter 2 fault identification and MEL Cat C allowances
AUTO FLT RUD TRV LIM SYS
FAC 2 FAULT
This... they said was from the aircraft's write up...
Quoting Pihero (Reply 168):
"Safety Recommendation 2010-092
It is recommended that Airbus alert all operators of A320-series aircraft of the possibility that an electrical power generation system fault may not be clearly annunciated on the ECAM, and may lead to uncommanded rudder trim operation.",
Uncommanded rudder command or rudder trim is being suspected.
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This post by Romeo E.T., outlines the concern raised many years ago by air safety people in BASI (Aust) - the difference in approach to driving between those who receive all their early training in a military environment, and in jet fighters - and those who receive all their early training in a 100% civilian environment.
The basic approach used by military training is aggression, "punch through at all costs", "the aim is to win, no matter what", and to take every risk possible, to achieve the targetted outcome.
In a 100% civilian busdriver training environment, the stated or implied aim is to "take no risks", "turn back before you get into trouble", "remember you have many lives in your hands".
It was raised as a point of serious discussion by BASI, that it is difficult to get someone who has been trained in a military/fighter jet environment to totally reverse all their training, all their thought patterns, their aims and objectives, to ones that are completely at odds with their initial and early aviation learning, when they convert to RPT flying.
The basic approach used by military training is aggression, "punch through at all costs", "the aim is to win, no matter what", and to take every risk possible, to achieve the targetted outcome.
In a 100% civilian busdriver training environment, the stated or implied aim is to "take no risks", "turn back before you get into trouble", "remember you have many lives in your hands".
It was raised as a point of serious discussion by BASI, that it is difficult to get someone who has been trained in a military/fighter jet environment to totally reverse all their training, all their thought patterns, their aims and objectives, to ones that are completely at odds with their initial and early aviation learning, when they convert to RPT flying.
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Worth to notice that time interval between reported positions on that screen is up to above two min.
Even if there were some intermediate points not shown on graph, generally it doesn't work continuously but in rather large intervals.
Therefore, no "ping" between FL240 and impact, doesn't implicate (for me) in-flight break up.
Even if there were some intermediate points not shown on graph, generally it doesn't work continuously but in rather large intervals.
Therefore, no "ping" between FL240 and impact, doesn't implicate (for me) in-flight break up.
Question on g limitation & flight laws: is 1.75 or 2.5 G (not sure why those numbers are in my head) where the system doesn't let you pull any more G in the A320? With the idea that they got it stalled, and on the way down finally got it un-stalled (which takes some altitude, and might be a challenge if doing it in the goo in very turbulent air) they might end up in a dive but only be able to pull "x" amount of G and not be able to break the rate of descent before impact with surface.
Does that fit the impact being such that the break up spread the major pieces out more?
Does that fit the impact being such that the break up spread the major pieces out more?
@onetrack
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post8835103
Your post from 22. January 2015 time 8:54 does not hold any value in general, and not for this accident and this crew either. But you may keep your view of the suicidal military pilots if it suits you.
If you read up on "Turbulence and Thunderstorms" in the T.O. 1F-16 under section 7-2, which is on page 532 of the pdf file below, you will find the following information:
https://info.publicintelligence.net/USAF-F16.pdf
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post8835103
Your post from 22. January 2015 time 8:54 does not hold any value in general, and not for this accident and this crew either. But you may keep your view of the suicidal military pilots if it suits you.
If you read up on "Turbulence and Thunderstorms" in the T.O. 1F-16 under section 7-2, which is on page 532 of the pdf file below, you will find the following information:
Avoid flight in turbulent air, hailstorms and thunderstorms. There is a high probability of damage to airframe and componenets from impact ice, hail and lightning. ..........
The idea that the military train their aircrews to 'punch through' should be retired.
Afaik, the military hate to lose their assets. Consequently their rules are to avoid weather, rather than bulling ahead. That makes sense because an airplane that has gone through the mixmaster may then be incapable of completing the mission.
Afaik, the military hate to lose their assets. Consequently their rules are to avoid weather, rather than bulling ahead. That makes sense because an airplane that has gone through the mixmaster may then be incapable of completing the mission.
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Military Flight Safety Standards
I agree with Retired F4. My son is a USAF pilot. At the UPT graduation ceremony where he received his wings, the father of one of the new pilots gave the graduation speech. The speaker was a retired Major General who had many hours in combat flying F4s and F100s. His topic was safety. He explained that it was a mistake to think that because combat was dangerous, the safety procedures taught to new pilots could be ignored. In fact, it was expected that all risks that could be minimized, be properly dealt with. Of course, some risks in combat are out of the pilot's control. But whether or not a pilot is assigned to a war zone, some officer's primary job is safety, and monthly safety briefings are required.
Last edited by bob1vt; 22nd Jan 2015 at 17:46. Reason: Correct clumsy wording.
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I flew out of Surabaya to Jakarta a few hours before Air Asia 8501. I flew over the java sea enroute to Jakarta. The radar did pick up a lot of CBs over both land and sea. Though navigable, it was easy to navigate around.
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I suppose its a coincidence that ATC were unable to make contact a few mins before the left turn and rapid climb but have any of the unofficial reports or briefings mentioned or implied they heard the crew speaking or just alarms sounding?
Edit:
Nearest I can find is..
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...icle-1.2087107
Edit 2: Ok so at least they were heard to say something....
http://www.wsj.com/articles/airasia-...825697?tesla=y
Edit:
Nearest I can find is..
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...icle-1.2087107
The voices of the crew were drowned out by the warning alarms, said the investigator from Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/airasia-...825697?tesla=y
“The warning [alarms] kept on screaming, and in the background, they [the pilot and co-pilot] were trying to recover the plane,” said the crash investigator. “But what they said wasn’t clear,” the investigator said.
Last edited by cwatters; 22nd Jan 2015 at 16:26.
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“The warning [alarms] kept on screaming, and in the background, they [the pilot and co-pilot] were trying to recover the plane,” said the crash investigator. “But what they said wasn’t clear,” the investigator said.
