Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
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glendalegoon:
Ok, I may have been vague here. I'm talking about "small" planes, turboprops, think SAAB 340 and the like, not tiny Cessnas with four seats. My favourite would be the DC-3 or DC-4... ;-D
The reasoning behind this is if you learn to feel how the winds and air affect the plane, those physics translate even to one of those big shiny ones albeit big and shiny has more resistance to weather events due to their size.
Austral...
You are correct. I have not flown in the US only in Europe. I extrapolated from what is known about storm cells and convective air over ocean currents. Sorry if I offended anyone, I realise I did make that clear before.
And if you learn to feel things in small planes, how does that relate to computer controlled wonder jets?
The reasoning behind this is if you learn to feel how the winds and air affect the plane, those physics translate even to one of those big shiny ones albeit big and shiny has more resistance to weather events due to their size.
Austral...
Also, Mr. Snuggles... I suggest you have not tried to pick a way through a North American cold front in the spring/summer. Anywhere in the prairies into Canada you get monster cells.
I find tropical thunderstorms much less daunting than their temperate zone cousins. For one thing the air is close to saturated in those latitudes, giving less change of state to amplify the vertical wind shear. Landing three miles away from a cell at the equator? No problem. In Kansas City? Not so much.
I find tropical thunderstorms much less daunting than their temperate zone cousins. For one thing the air is close to saturated in those latitudes, giving less change of state to amplify the vertical wind shear. Landing three miles away from a cell at the equator? No problem. In Kansas City? Not so much.
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Three to four years ago Airbus introduced new stall recovery procedures which I imagine all Airbus pilots would now be familiar with:
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The Airbus A330 stall recovery in place...
Large aeroplanes are not intended to be stalled, hence there is no procedure required to recover from a fully developed stall.
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Three to four years ago Airbus introduced new stall recovery procedures which I imagine all Airbus pilots would now be familiar with:
http://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/Safety%...une%202010.pdf
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1048360...0Procedure.pdf
http://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/Safety%...une%202010.pdf
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1048360...0Procedure.pdf
Has anyone recovered from a real full stall in these FBW aircraft at cruise level?
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Roseland:
At altitude, doubly so, because of less dense air, in turn directly related to LESS ENGINE THRUST AVAILABLE, as well as slower engine windup rate. 
Reducing AOA does the job right now.
BTW, Roseland, do you mean 10,000 fpm, not fps?
...I doubt when you're sinking at 10,000fps (close on 100kts) any amount of power will unstall you without putting the nose down.
Reducing AOA does the job right now.
BTW, Roseland, do you mean 10,000 fpm, not fps?
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Glendalelagoon...add one more bit...bring up the bird, and let them see trajectory vs pitch, show them with full forward stick, but full THS up, how ineffective the elevator really is..
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Far better to have homo sapiens trained to move the THS - and do it?
You'll have to ask him, but I hear that even Australopithecus' dance card is full!
I have and others have brought up the trim issue in this thread more than once, but the "Authorities" cull the postings out for the most part. Not politically correct, I guess.
Considering what trim does on a particular aircraft, in what situation and when, needs emphasis in training, so pilots given sudden control of an aircraft, might realize why their elevator inputs may not have the level of effect they want. They can then adjust the trim in a timely manner if need be.
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@ oldchina and formation driver on FR's - CVR and FDR
There are roughly 4 different groups of pictures associated with the Flight Recorders of AirAsia 8501 on the web at the moment:
1. Earlier pictures of FR's. We can often quickly eliminate these by the fact that the 'memory module cyclinders' are mounted horizontally. While the AirAsia recorder's 'cylinders' are mounted vertically and positioned at the extreme end of the 'sigar box'.
2. Earlier pictures of FR's submerged in a transparant casing, these can be eliminated because the latching/lid is much different from those on the photos with Gen.Moeldoko. So, his morale boosting visit gets a nice bonus.
3. FR's presented by the chief of the KNKT/NTSC during an earlier press conference. These have 'vertically mounted memory module cylinders. I do not have the exact date of the pictures yet. Low prio. These are undamaged indeed. And me be the exact same type of the actuals.
4. The actual recorders. Vertically mounted cylinders. Parts of supporting / mounting frame attached which are partially deformed. Corner of the CVR 'power cube' dented. I have not seen a picture of the 'outer box', would be interesting to see the damage on that.
During their trip the boxes have changed carrying/transport containers at least four times it seems. First an icebox (white and blue) on board Indonesian vessel Banda Aceh . Then a black box (like the divers use) from Indonesian vessel Banda Aceh to shore. And during the transfer from ship to shore at PB we first see the transparant box. Finally, in Surabaya, a black large box (probably containing the last transparant one), for transfer to Jakarta.
Early on there was one picture showing detailed configuration data of the CVR.
Hope this helps.
1. Earlier pictures of FR's. We can often quickly eliminate these by the fact that the 'memory module cyclinders' are mounted horizontally. While the AirAsia recorder's 'cylinders' are mounted vertically and positioned at the extreme end of the 'sigar box'.
2. Earlier pictures of FR's submerged in a transparant casing, these can be eliminated because the latching/lid is much different from those on the photos with Gen.Moeldoko. So, his morale boosting visit gets a nice bonus.
3. FR's presented by the chief of the KNKT/NTSC during an earlier press conference. These have 'vertically mounted memory module cylinders. I do not have the exact date of the pictures yet. Low prio. These are undamaged indeed. And me be the exact same type of the actuals.
4. The actual recorders. Vertically mounted cylinders. Parts of supporting / mounting frame attached which are partially deformed. Corner of the CVR 'power cube' dented. I have not seen a picture of the 'outer box', would be interesting to see the damage on that.
During their trip the boxes have changed carrying/transport containers at least four times it seems. First an icebox (white and blue) on board Indonesian vessel Banda Aceh . Then a black box (like the divers use) from Indonesian vessel Banda Aceh to shore. And during the transfer from ship to shore at PB we first see the transparant box. Finally, in Surabaya, a black large box (probably containing the last transparant one), for transfer to Jakarta.
Early on there was one picture showing detailed configuration data of the CVR.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by A0283; 16th Jan 2015 at 18:49.
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No option then to lift the fuselage by balloons or cranes
PANGKALAN BUN, Indonesia (AP) — An Indonesian search official said Friday that the crashed AirAsia jet's fuselage will be lifted to the surface after sea conditions again prevented divers from examining the large chunk of wreckage.
National Search and Rescue Agency chief Henry Bambang Soelistyo said that rescue teams discovered more wreckage despite the strong current and poor visibility.
"Apart from the fuselage, we found what we suspected as the aircraft's cockpit and also an engine," he said. "We also found what seems to be a passenger seat in which we thought there still bodies tied on it."
He did not specify whether or not the seat was inside the fuselage section that sits on the seabed at a depth of 28 meters (92 feet). The 30-meter-long (100-foot-long) part of the plane body with a wing attached was sighted Wednesday.
Rescuers believe that many of the bodies are still inside the main fuselage.
Soelistyo said the failure of the underwater examination of the wreckage left no option but to lift the fuselage, either by using floating balloons as the tail part was lifted early this week, or using cranes from tugboats. He did not say when the operation would start.
Earlier Friday, chief of operation of the agency, Suryadi Bambang Supriyadi said the wreckage that appears to be the cockpit was located by sonar imagery about 500 meters (yards) from the fuselage and partly embedded in the mud.
National Search and Rescue Agency chief Henry Bambang Soelistyo said that rescue teams discovered more wreckage despite the strong current and poor visibility.
"Apart from the fuselage, we found what we suspected as the aircraft's cockpit and also an engine," he said. "We also found what seems to be a passenger seat in which we thought there still bodies tied on it."
He did not specify whether or not the seat was inside the fuselage section that sits on the seabed at a depth of 28 meters (92 feet). The 30-meter-long (100-foot-long) part of the plane body with a wing attached was sighted Wednesday.
Rescuers believe that many of the bodies are still inside the main fuselage.
Soelistyo said the failure of the underwater examination of the wreckage left no option but to lift the fuselage, either by using floating balloons as the tail part was lifted early this week, or using cranes from tugboats. He did not say when the operation would start.
Earlier Friday, chief of operation of the agency, Suryadi Bambang Supriyadi said the wreckage that appears to be the cockpit was located by sonar imagery about 500 meters (yards) from the fuselage and partly embedded in the mud.
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"weather not only factor"
not sure what to make of this
"Chief investigator" who seems to have knowledge of downloaded data from CVR/FDR says in interview that weather ("cloud") was not the only factor
(from twitter @nihonmama and Jeff Wise blog)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usdn...ature=youtu.be
"Chief investigator" who seems to have knowledge of downloaded data from CVR/FDR says in interview that weather ("cloud") was not the only factor
(from twitter @nihonmama and Jeff Wise blog)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usdn...ature=youtu.be
mcloaked There is interesting and relevant discussion on stalls at
Stop Stalling | Flight Safety Foundation
Stop Stalling | Flight Safety Foundation
Perhaps it would be more accurate for Claude Lelaie to say,
“If you push on the stick (and trim forward as required), you will fly!”
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American & Indonesian air crash investigators share a history:
Wall Street Journal
By ANDY PASZTOR
American and Indonesian air-crash investigators share a history of sometimes strained relations stretching back to the late 1990s, which U.S. officials say could impact the current AirAsia probe. That legacy also may partly explain why the two sides are still discussing potential U.S. participation in the probe of Flight 8501 nearly two weeks after the Airbus A320 with 162 people aboard dropped from radar while flying near storm cells en route to Singapore from Surabaya. In Washington, a spokeswoman for the National Transportation Safety Board has said officials are waiting for an invitation to join the multinational inquiry, which already includes French industry and government experts. In recent years, the U.S. agency increasingly has been reluctant to commit significant resources, or send investigators to foreign accident scenes, before wreckage or black box recorders are recovered.
By contrast, officials in Jakarta have said the U.S. is welcome to participate, all it has to do is ask, and that they expect the NTSB eventually will join the probe. But they added that is likely to happen only after remnants of the plane, sitting in the silt at the bottom of the Java Sea, are brought to the surface. A spokesman for General Electric Co., which helped build the jetliner’s engines, earlier this week said the company fully anticipates participating in the inquiry alongside the NTSB. But he didn’t indicate a possible timetable. Former NTSB officials said prior disagreements between the two countries—sparked by two earlier fatal crashes of Indonesian carriers—appear to be complicating the current situation.
Some of these officials, who were involved in the disputes, remember how tension between the two camps initially erupted. In the wake of the SilkAir flight that went down in a muddy Indonesian river delta in 1997, killing all 104 people on board, U.S. and Indonesian experts joined forces to dissect causes of the tragedy. But they had a falling out over the findings of the final report. In the end, Indonesian experts concluded there was no way to conclusively determine why certain flight-control panels on the tail were put into a dive configuration, or why both flight-data and cockpit-voice recorders stopped operating before the fatal dive. NTSB experts, however, felt the physical evidence and other data pointed to pilot suicide. By 2000, the NTSB’s chairman publicly indicated that no airplane-related failures could explain what occurred, and the only plausible explanation was intentional pilot action.
About 10 years later, there was similar friction after a jet operated by Adam Air, a now-defunct low-cost carrier, went down during a domestic flight, killing 102 people. Indonesian authorities, who said they needed various forms of outside help, persisted in asking the U.S. to foot the bill to try to bring the wreckage to the surface from some 6,000 feet under water. Mark Rosenker, who was NTSB chairman at the time, recalls that an Indonesian delegation came to Washington—and went to visit United Nations air-safety officials in Montreal—as part of a campaign to press for U.S. funding. But safety board officials kept saying no. “It became a point of principle,” Mr. Rosenker said this week, because the U.S. was convinced international law and precedent required Indonesia to underwrite retrieval costs. Eventually, the airline paid for the search to retrieve the recorders.
When it comes to AirAsia, Indonesian officials say data from the A320’s black-box recorders, once the devices are recovered, will be downloaded at a government laboratory in Jakarta, Indonesia’s capital. Government investigators from France, the country that certified the aircraft and where it was assembled, are expected to participate. Amid rough seas and poor visibility underwater in the search area southwest of the island of Borneo, Indonesia has accepted the help of military assets from many foreign nations, including the U.S., China, Malaysia, Australia and Russia.
Australia, which took the lead in the hunt for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 last year, hasn’t taken such a prominent role this time. But Singapore, another commercial-aviation powerhouse that seeks to become the center of air-safety advocacy in the Pacific region, has provided some technical advice and search equipment. U.S. experts also have been involved in other recent Indonesian crash investigations. A number of NTSB experts traveled to Indonesia to participate in the probe of a Lion Air jet that crashed into the water short of a runway last April while trying to land in stormy weather in Bali. There were no fatalities, but the plane broke into pieces.
By ANDY PASZTOR
American and Indonesian air-crash investigators share a history of sometimes strained relations stretching back to the late 1990s, which U.S. officials say could impact the current AirAsia probe. That legacy also may partly explain why the two sides are still discussing potential U.S. participation in the probe of Flight 8501 nearly two weeks after the Airbus A320 with 162 people aboard dropped from radar while flying near storm cells en route to Singapore from Surabaya. In Washington, a spokeswoman for the National Transportation Safety Board has said officials are waiting for an invitation to join the multinational inquiry, which already includes French industry and government experts. In recent years, the U.S. agency increasingly has been reluctant to commit significant resources, or send investigators to foreign accident scenes, before wreckage or black box recorders are recovered.
By contrast, officials in Jakarta have said the U.S. is welcome to participate, all it has to do is ask, and that they expect the NTSB eventually will join the probe. But they added that is likely to happen only after remnants of the plane, sitting in the silt at the bottom of the Java Sea, are brought to the surface. A spokesman for General Electric Co., which helped build the jetliner’s engines, earlier this week said the company fully anticipates participating in the inquiry alongside the NTSB. But he didn’t indicate a possible timetable. Former NTSB officials said prior disagreements between the two countries—sparked by two earlier fatal crashes of Indonesian carriers—appear to be complicating the current situation.
Some of these officials, who were involved in the disputes, remember how tension between the two camps initially erupted. In the wake of the SilkAir flight that went down in a muddy Indonesian river delta in 1997, killing all 104 people on board, U.S. and Indonesian experts joined forces to dissect causes of the tragedy. But they had a falling out over the findings of the final report. In the end, Indonesian experts concluded there was no way to conclusively determine why certain flight-control panels on the tail were put into a dive configuration, or why both flight-data and cockpit-voice recorders stopped operating before the fatal dive. NTSB experts, however, felt the physical evidence and other data pointed to pilot suicide. By 2000, the NTSB’s chairman publicly indicated that no airplane-related failures could explain what occurred, and the only plausible explanation was intentional pilot action.
About 10 years later, there was similar friction after a jet operated by Adam Air, a now-defunct low-cost carrier, went down during a domestic flight, killing 102 people. Indonesian authorities, who said they needed various forms of outside help, persisted in asking the U.S. to foot the bill to try to bring the wreckage to the surface from some 6,000 feet under water. Mark Rosenker, who was NTSB chairman at the time, recalls that an Indonesian delegation came to Washington—and went to visit United Nations air-safety officials in Montreal—as part of a campaign to press for U.S. funding. But safety board officials kept saying no. “It became a point of principle,” Mr. Rosenker said this week, because the U.S. was convinced international law and precedent required Indonesia to underwrite retrieval costs. Eventually, the airline paid for the search to retrieve the recorders.
When it comes to AirAsia, Indonesian officials say data from the A320’s black-box recorders, once the devices are recovered, will be downloaded at a government laboratory in Jakarta, Indonesia’s capital. Government investigators from France, the country that certified the aircraft and where it was assembled, are expected to participate. Amid rough seas and poor visibility underwater in the search area southwest of the island of Borneo, Indonesia has accepted the help of military assets from many foreign nations, including the U.S., China, Malaysia, Australia and Russia.
Australia, which took the lead in the hunt for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 last year, hasn’t taken such a prominent role this time. But Singapore, another commercial-aviation powerhouse that seeks to become the center of air-safety advocacy in the Pacific region, has provided some technical advice and search equipment. U.S. experts also have been involved in other recent Indonesian crash investigations. A number of NTSB experts traveled to Indonesia to participate in the probe of a Lion Air jet that crashed into the water short of a runway last April while trying to land in stormy weather in Bali. There were no fatalities, but the plane broke into pieces.
CVR playback?
Does anyone know if the CVR has been received at the relevant lab? Recovery was what, 2 days ago now? It seems difficult to imagine that the basic cause of this incident isn't very obvious from what will be heard on that recorder. Certainly the FDR will reveal a lot more subtle aspects, but as in AF447, the "big picture" was very evident from the CVR transcript.
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From a previous post ..
So, yes, it has been received and downloaded. Standby for the leaks on social media in the next couple of weeks. 
Safety committee head Tatang Kurniadi said 174 hours of data had been downloaded from the flight data recorder, and two hours and four minutes from the cockpit voice recorder.
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Here's an interview with the chief of the KNKT (NTSC) after downloading data from the FDR. He's not revealing too much at this stage which is understandable. It's interesting that he has aircraft models of recent aircraft fatal accidents behind him in his office (Sukoi SJ 100 and Merpati's MA60).
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FDR and CVR status - till end of January 16th
As far as I know:
There is an unofficial piece of tape - claimed to be from 8501 - containing pre-takeoff comms with the control tower in Surabaya. I ve been listening to that and the quality is not that good. Tried to make a transcript ( because I could not find one ), but hard to confirm what has been claimed, based on that. Could just have been another flight.
Both recorders have been delivered to KNKT/NTSC HQ and Lab in Jakarta. The FDR on Jan.12th, and CVR on the night of Jan. 13th or in the early morning thereafter.
First reported results:
"Safety committee-head Tatang Kurniadi said that 174 hrs of data had been downloaded from the FDR, and 2 hrs and 4 min from the CVR. The data must be converted into a usable format before the lengthy analysis process can begin.- AFP".
Timeframes for download and first analysis given during the last few weeks by KNKT ran from 2 days to 2 weeks. It depends on the quality of what is retrieved. The recorders looked good, so most expect a quick retrieval. But you never know.
A prelim report is often set at 1 month after the accident. But with this open water search and the relatively later finds, it would not suprise me if they would set that at 1 month after the FDR find. So somewhere mid February. All parties involved will want to make sure that what will be reported does not have to be retracted later. Saves us all from all kinds of conspiracy theories.
Expect the worst, but (we all) hope for the best.
There is an unofficial piece of tape - claimed to be from 8501 - containing pre-takeoff comms with the control tower in Surabaya. I ve been listening to that and the quality is not that good. Tried to make a transcript ( because I could not find one ), but hard to confirm what has been claimed, based on that. Could just have been another flight.
Both recorders have been delivered to KNKT/NTSC HQ and Lab in Jakarta. The FDR on Jan.12th, and CVR on the night of Jan. 13th or in the early morning thereafter.
First reported results:
"Safety committee-head Tatang Kurniadi said that 174 hrs of data had been downloaded from the FDR, and 2 hrs and 4 min from the CVR. The data must be converted into a usable format before the lengthy analysis process can begin.- AFP".
Timeframes for download and first analysis given during the last few weeks by KNKT ran from 2 days to 2 weeks. It depends on the quality of what is retrieved. The recorders looked good, so most expect a quick retrieval. But you never know.
A prelim report is often set at 1 month after the accident. But with this open water search and the relatively later finds, it would not suprise me if they would set that at 1 month after the FDR find. So somewhere mid February. All parties involved will want to make sure that what will be reported does not have to be retracted later. Saves us all from all kinds of conspiracy theories.
Expect the worst, but (we all) hope for the best.
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Quick and dirty transcript of the interview with the head of the KNKT
@ training wheels video
CCTV INTERVIEW WITH HEAD OF KNKT/NTSC
[ a quick and dirty transcript by A0283,which means it is not meant to be 100% correct, my additions are put between [ ] ...
[ Also, the Q's start the questions by the journalist, the A's start the answers by the Head of the NTSC ]
[And, I left the english as it was spoken]
Q ...[illegible]...[Tatang?]..
Q thank you so much for your time, You must be very busy,
Q how is your investigation going, were are you right now,
I think from the [find] of the flightrecorders...
Information has been download,
About 1200 parameters... and then frame hours download for 174 hrs...
Then from CVR... we download the length of 2hr and 4min...of the information [from] the CVR.
Q and did you find any red flags....like anything that caused for an alarm, that immediately stands out,
A ... there are around, just little more... when the accident happened to the aircraft,
A but the content is undisclose methodology...cannot be published,
Q so, to know cause of this crash, do you need all the wreckages, or is it...
A NO,
Q enough for the black boxes,
A [but] it is very good to lift it, makea mock up, and then to show it to the public, as lessons learned,
Q ...you will leave in your hands... you have the key to the cause of the crash,
A we have the key,
Q is it weather, is it because of the clouds,the weather,
A I cannot say like that, [clouds] that is only one aspect, [just] one factor, ...accident always happen because of too many factors ... clouds,
Q so we can you already found other factors,
A yes... also [found] other factors,[confirms and nods],
Q the Indonesian safety record is not very good, compared to other countries, what are some of the most pressing concern[s] that you have, as head of the NTSB [NTSC],
A I think our improvement started in2007, our rate of accident [was] dramatically reduced, from [then] 4.12 to 1.53[per ... ] in 2013, .. [dropped], assisted by the rate increase operational [flying]hrs...
A rate of
A to maintain [improve] our safetyculture, ... and then to enforce safety recommendations,...operators and also the regulators,
Q there is a lot of international attention on this crash, because of the two major crash that happened during[in] 2014, MH370 and MH17,
Q a lot of talks been going on, that [there] should be a better way for the black boxes to be found, for finding the black boxes ... to be found,
Q that this is something crucial for the aerospace industry
A sometimes we find difficulty to find the black box, where are they, especially when they happen at sea, and costly to find,
A I think in the future ... it should be new technology to transfer the FDR and CVR.. [data/information] to another system,
END OF INTERVIEW
CCTV INTERVIEW WITH HEAD OF KNKT/NTSC
[ a quick and dirty transcript by A0283,which means it is not meant to be 100% correct, my additions are put between [ ] ...
[ Also, the Q's start the questions by the journalist, the A's start the answers by the Head of the NTSC ]
[And, I left the english as it was spoken]
Q ...[illegible]...[Tatang?]..
Q thank you so much for your time, You must be very busy,
Q how is your investigation going, were are you right now,
I think from the [find] of the flightrecorders...
Information has been download,
About 1200 parameters... and then frame hours download for 174 hrs...
Then from CVR... we download the length of 2hr and 4min...of the information [from] the CVR.
Q and did you find any red flags....like anything that caused for an alarm, that immediately stands out,
A ... there are around, just little more... when the accident happened to the aircraft,
A but the content is undisclose methodology...cannot be published,
Q so, to know cause of this crash, do you need all the wreckages, or is it...
A NO,
Q enough for the black boxes,
A [but] it is very good to lift it, makea mock up, and then to show it to the public, as lessons learned,
Q ...you will leave in your hands... you have the key to the cause of the crash,
A we have the key,
Q is it weather, is it because of the clouds,the weather,
A I cannot say like that, [clouds] that is only one aspect, [just] one factor, ...accident always happen because of too many factors ... clouds,
Q so we can you already found other factors,
A yes... also [found] other factors,[confirms and nods],
Q the Indonesian safety record is not very good, compared to other countries, what are some of the most pressing concern[s] that you have, as head of the NTSB [NTSC],
A I think our improvement started in2007, our rate of accident [was] dramatically reduced, from [then] 4.12 to 1.53[per ... ] in 2013, .. [dropped], assisted by the rate increase operational [flying]hrs...
A rate of
A to maintain [improve] our safetyculture, ... and then to enforce safety recommendations,...operators and also the regulators,
Q there is a lot of international attention on this crash, because of the two major crash that happened during[in] 2014, MH370 and MH17,
Q a lot of talks been going on, that [there] should be a better way for the black boxes to be found, for finding the black boxes ... to be found,
Q that this is something crucial for the aerospace industry
A sometimes we find difficulty to find the black box, where are they, especially when they happen at sea, and costly to find,
A I think in the future ... it should be new technology to transfer the FDR and CVR.. [data/information] to another system,
END OF INTERVIEW
Last edited by A0283; 17th Jan 2015 at 14:56.
Originally Posted by Volume
Large aeroplanes are not intended to be stalled, hence there is no procedure required to recover from a fully developed stall.
