Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
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CVR & FDR update
From Pangkalan Bun (Indonesia) (AFP):
The boxes, which are actually orange in colour, have been flown to Jakarta, where Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee is leading a probe into the accident helped by experts from countries including France and the US.
Safety committee head Tatang Kurniadi said 174 hours of data had been downloaded from the flight data recorder, and two hours and four minutes from the cockpit voice recorder.
The boxes, which are actually orange in colour, have been flown to Jakarta, where Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee is leading a probe into the accident helped by experts from countries including France and the US.
Safety committee head Tatang Kurniadi said 174 hours of data had been downloaded from the flight data recorder, and two hours and four minutes from the cockpit voice recorder.
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Newly released photo shows additional parts of wreckage
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Wheelsright
This was my understanding too.
Perhaps someone knows if Sully's landing in the Hudson caused the aircraft ELT to work. I have not heard of any water landing/crash where the ELT worked.
I have only heard of military PLB's (SARBE) actually locating people. I was involved in the SAR for a P3 North of Malin head that nobody realized had crashed till we got a report from a small GA aircraft of hearing a PLB on 121.5.
I have only heard of one successful ELT alert that was the crash of a politician in the North US where apparently the ELT worked.
I do not think that there is any example of a commercial aircraft being located other than by witness, ATC and/or conventional search.
Perhaps someone knows if Sully's landing in the Hudson caused the aircraft ELT to work. I have not heard of any water landing/crash where the ELT worked.
I have only heard of military PLB's (SARBE) actually locating people. I was involved in the SAR for a P3 North of Malin head that nobody realized had crashed till we got a report from a small GA aircraft of hearing a PLB on 121.5.
I have only heard of one successful ELT alert that was the crash of a politician in the North US where apparently the ELT worked.
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It seems reasonable to assume that the tail section may have downflooded more slowly than the fuselage. We know that there are strong currents in the area. Assume w current of 1.7 knots and assume an hour for the empennage to flood to sinking point and it will be 1.7 miles from the fuselage.
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The statistical chances of surviving ditching in the ocean are very small. Yet, every passenger aircraft has life jackets, rafts, passenger safety briefings and so on. Clearly, it is the intention of the air travel industry to give the passengers at least a reasonable chance of surviving a ditching event.
I personally feel good about the life rafts, etc still being in use, even if they are a throwback.
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It seems reasonable to assume that the tail section may have downflooded more slowly than the fuselage. We know that there are strong currents in the area. Assume w current of 1.7 knots and assume an hour for the empennage to flood to sinking point and it will be 1.7 miles from the fuselage.
"The current is so strong that it could rip open our masks or drag us into a whirlpool," said Totok Subagio, in charge of a group that this week found the plane's two black box flight recorders, after a lengthy, difficult search. Trained to swim to depths of 45 metres, the Indonesian navy's finest frogmen were drafted in to scour the seabed for wreckage of the Airbus 320-200 that went down in a storm on Dec 28 en route to Singapore.
But in the Karimata Strait between Indonesia's Sumatra island and Borneo island, they have had to contend with rough seas, powerful underwater currents, and weather that changes from bright and sunny one moment to cloudy and rainy the next."
But in the Karimata Strait between Indonesia's Sumatra island and Borneo island, they have had to contend with rough seas, powerful underwater currents, and weather that changes from bright and sunny one moment to cloudy and rainy the next."
I am actually surprised how close these pieces are to each other considering the strength of the subsurface currents.
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Although surviving an ocean ditching may be statistically low nowadays, the rafts, life jackets, etc are a bit of a throwback to when a survivable ocean ditching was quite possible. Back in the days when aircraft were much slower and had better glide ratios, in the pre-jet age, ocean ditching happened enough to justify rafts and life jackets. Piston engine aircraft were overall less reliable, so might have to ditch in the ocean, while still somewhat flyable. In today's reliable, but fast jet aircraft, the few times things go wrong, there's a good chance they go very wrong. A compromise in air worthiness often is either non-catastrophic or catastrophic. In the old days, there was an in between, where life jackets and rafts might come in handy. You might call it "Semi-catastrophic".
I personally feel good about the life rafts, etc still being in use, even if they are a throwback.
I personally feel good about the life rafts, etc still being in use, even if they are a throwback.
Modern jetliners should have better glide ratios than old piston airliners.
Just ask Captain Bob Pearson of the "Gimli Glider", or Captain Robert Piché of Air Transat Flight 236.
Currents and buoyvance
For those still doubting what a 5-6 knot current can do, it's all in the buoyancy of the fin. The impact with the surface of the sea was obviously sufficient to buckle the aft pressure bulkhead, tear off the apu and elevators and dislodge the heavy recorders but leave the fin intact enough to float, gradually sinking as water filtered into its and the rudder's compartments and finally coming to rest when its anchor, the remains of the aft fuselage, snag on the ocean floor.
Did you read about the divers working downwards hand over hand on the buoy cables and being streamed out like flying Supermen? Imagine a semi-floating object, sinking only gradually. I'm surprised the tail was found only 1.7km from the impact point.
Regarding recorders being found "under the wing", at that depth, in murky water, wing or elevator would look the same. I'd assume elevator.
Finally, many divers are by nature consummate risk-takers. I'm not one but have butted heads with a few. it looks as though they've been lucky so far but I hope to hell they're careful over the coming days. Grim work.
Did you read about the divers working downwards hand over hand on the buoy cables and being streamed out like flying Supermen? Imagine a semi-floating object, sinking only gradually. I'm surprised the tail was found only 1.7km from the impact point.
Regarding recorders being found "under the wing", at that depth, in murky water, wing or elevator would look the same. I'd assume elevator.
Finally, many divers are by nature consummate risk-takers. I'm not one but have butted heads with a few. it looks as though they've been lucky so far but I hope to hell they're careful over the coming days. Grim work.
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Ditching is survivable
The "first" commercial jet to ditch in the open ocean: alm flight 980
ALM Flight 980 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR71-08.pdf
ALM Flight 980 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR71-08.pdf
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Just ask Captain Bob Pearson of the "Gimli Glider", or Captain Robert Piché of Air Transat Flight 236.
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Although surviving an ocean ditching may be statistically low nowadays, the rafts, life jackets, etc are a bit of a throwback to when a survivable ocean ditching was quite possible.
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Leightman957 (currently post 2062)
IF it was weather related we may finally know in a few days, hopefully!
I, for one, would like to see more training in actual small planes, getting pilots to know the air and what it does, not just some pre-planned prepared sim button pushings. Of course bean counters will scoff at this, but I am thinking Logan Air, Braathens, Buffalo Air, Suzy Air etc. Excellent training for pilots to FEEL the element they are moving in.
Weatherwise, a CB in Indonesia is totally different from a CB in Sweden or over bigger parts of the US. In Sweden it is too cold to get any Godzilla CBs and in the US it gets big but it hasn't the ocean current beneath it to make it Godzilla. (Ok, except for the states close to the Mexican Gulf.)
'more training' suggested by many seems to offer very few benefits.
I, for one, would like to see more training in actual small planes, getting pilots to know the air and what it does, not just some pre-planned prepared sim button pushings. Of course bean counters will scoff at this, but I am thinking Logan Air, Braathens, Buffalo Air, Suzy Air etc. Excellent training for pilots to FEEL the element they are moving in.
Weatherwise, a CB in Indonesia is totally different from a CB in Sweden or over bigger parts of the US. In Sweden it is too cold to get any Godzilla CBs and in the US it gets big but it hasn't the ocean current beneath it to make it Godzilla. (Ok, except for the states close to the Mexican Gulf.)
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hey, how about making a rule that anyone flying for an airline actually has to have a good amount of experience PRIOR to getting hired.
mrsnuggles, somehow I really don't think your view about this is anywhere near correct.
let's find out what happened. though I think I know what did happen.
And if you learn to feel things in small planes, how does that relate to computer controlled wonder jets?
IN good old jets, it actually FELT different when you flew slowly vs flying fast.
mrsnuggles, somehow I really don't think your view about this is anywhere near correct.
let's find out what happened. though I think I know what did happen.
And if you learn to feel things in small planes, how does that relate to computer controlled wonder jets?
IN good old jets, it actually FELT different when you flew slowly vs flying fast.
I don't know Glendale...how much general aviation goes on compared to the airlines? Worldwide, I mean.
When I first hired on to a turboprop regional the cover charge was 3,000 hrs twin. My 24 year old contemporaries all had at least that much time. Is that even achievable anymore?
Since the early 70's I think the airlines have quadrupled their fleets while GA has shrunk to almost nothing. My hometown, back in the day, had 13 piston twins, three PA-3Ts and two C-500, almost all crewed by eventual airline pilots. Now there are exactly two private twins.
I wonder how large most Air Forces are now compared to previous decades?
Also, Mr. Snuggles... I suggest you have not tried to pick a way through a North American cold front in the spring/summer. Anywhere in the prairies into Canada you get monster cells.
I find tropical thunderstorms much less daunting than their temperate zone cousins. For one thing the air is close to saturated in those latitudes, giving less change of state to amplify the vertical wind shear. Landing three miles away from a cell at the equator? No problem. In Kansas City? Not so much.
On the light aircraft training...it is a different animal to high altitude, high speed flight. Better would be theoretical training followed by mishandling into incipient stalls at altitude. I don't think that the average SOP monkey has an appreciation of just how fragile a 1.3 G buffet margin is.
When I first hired on to a turboprop regional the cover charge was 3,000 hrs twin. My 24 year old contemporaries all had at least that much time. Is that even achievable anymore?
Since the early 70's I think the airlines have quadrupled their fleets while GA has shrunk to almost nothing. My hometown, back in the day, had 13 piston twins, three PA-3Ts and two C-500, almost all crewed by eventual airline pilots. Now there are exactly two private twins.
I wonder how large most Air Forces are now compared to previous decades?
Also, Mr. Snuggles... I suggest you have not tried to pick a way through a North American cold front in the spring/summer. Anywhere in the prairies into Canada you get monster cells.
I find tropical thunderstorms much less daunting than their temperate zone cousins. For one thing the air is close to saturated in those latitudes, giving less change of state to amplify the vertical wind shear. Landing three miles away from a cell at the equator? No problem. In Kansas City? Not so much.
On the light aircraft training...it is a different animal to high altitude, high speed flight. Better would be theoretical training followed by mishandling into incipient stalls at altitude. I don't think that the average SOP monkey has an appreciation of just how fragile a 1.3 G buffet margin is.
Last edited by Australopithecus; 16th Jan 2015 at 00:29.
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well, how about this
take an average airline pilot up with a test pilot in a wonder jet. go to FL350 and stall the plane, full stall.
recover
and VIDEO the whole thing from many viewpoints including the instruments, out the window
do it at night too
do it in clouds with nothing outside
show the nose down pitch attitude to recover and the altimeter winding down
show a G meter to show that the plane might go negative if the pitch down is abrupt.
record all the data that the FDR would get and feed it into the sims so we can all do it.
Quite frankly I wouldn't go up in a small plane for training unless I am being paid the full amount that I would get for flying a transport.
well, lets wait and HOPE that we hear soon what happened.
take an average airline pilot up with a test pilot in a wonder jet. go to FL350 and stall the plane, full stall.
recover
and VIDEO the whole thing from many viewpoints including the instruments, out the window
do it at night too
do it in clouds with nothing outside
show the nose down pitch attitude to recover and the altimeter winding down
show a G meter to show that the plane might go negative if the pitch down is abrupt.
record all the data that the FDR would get and feed it into the sims so we can all do it.
Quite frankly I wouldn't go up in a small plane for training unless I am being paid the full amount that I would get for flying a transport.
well, lets wait and HOPE that we hear soon what happened.
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"For example, if there had been a protection state in AFR447 that motored the THS to zero NU as soon as there was a stall indication" - a sensible idea, Ian, BUT now remember you have to build in protection against a false stall warning!
Far better to have homo sapiens trained to move the THS - and do it?
Far better to have homo sapiens trained to move the THS - and do it?
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The stall warning was real.
Yes Homo 'sapiens' could do this but then the same could be said of all the protections. However, in this case it just seems an easy thing to do and it puts the the aircraft into a recoverable position.
Out of interest do any of the stall recovery memory items include check trim neutral?
Yes Homo 'sapiens' could do this but then the same could be said of all the protections. However, in this case it just seems an easy thing to do and it puts the the aircraft into a recoverable position.
Out of interest do any of the stall recovery memory items include check trim neutral?
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Out of interest do any of the stall recovery memory items include check trim neutral?
BTW, I doubt when you're sinking at 10,000fpm (close on 100kts) any amount of power will unstall you without putting the nose down.
Last edited by Roseland; 16th Jan 2015 at 13:45.
Originally Posted by Flagon
"For example, if there had been a protection state in AFR447 that motored the THS to zero NU as soon as there was a stall indication" - a sensible idea, Ian, BUT now remember you have to build in protection against a false stall warning!
Far better to have homo sapiens trained to move the THS - and do it?
Far better to have homo sapiens trained to move the THS - and do it?
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Three to four years ago Airbus introduced new stall recovery procedures which I imagine all Airbus pilots would now be familiar with:
http://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/Safety%...une%202010.pdf
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1048360...0Procedure.pdf
http://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/Safety%...une%202010.pdf
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1048360...0Procedure.pdf