Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
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With regards to the twisted and crushed metal we are seeing - early reports cited gale force winds and waves up to 5 meters high. Is anyone able to comment what those sort of storm conditions would do to a (temporarily) floating airframe?
Are those loads capable of tearing apart what is an otherwise largely intact airframe?
Are those loads capable of tearing apart what is an otherwise largely intact airframe?
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ATC do precisely that.
In areas subject to large numbers of convective storms (called by some controllers 'popcorn thundershowers') Flow management may put significant limits on the number of aircraft allowed through the airspace. In areas where aircraft are confined to fixed air routes the flow managers will normally put on an extended 'Miles In Trail' limit to reduce the numbers of aircraft. Controllers in sectors that start becoming difficult to work will give the surrounding sectors a maximum number of aircraft they can accept in a time period - to reduce workload and make working the aircraft in their sector safer.
In areas subject to large numbers of convective storms (called by some controllers 'popcorn thundershowers') Flow management may put significant limits on the number of aircraft allowed through the airspace. In areas where aircraft are confined to fixed air routes the flow managers will normally put on an extended 'Miles In Trail' limit to reduce the numbers of aircraft. Controllers in sectors that start becoming difficult to work will give the surrounding sectors a maximum number of aircraft they can accept in a time period - to reduce workload and make working the aircraft in their sector safer.
BTW, when I googled 'Miles in Trail', I was startled to see that your own post in this thread, from half an hour ago, was one of the top results. Google's ability to track us in real time could give the airlines a lesson.
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Re bille1319
Quote/...Well then you will need a unit that's about 4 times as large to give more power output and longivity. But 25NM range: dream on unless you're talking of equipment capable of transmitting to submarines which is massive i.e Rugby." .../unquote.
You may have mixed up audio, albeit of high frequency, such as a pinger, bat or dog whistle makes; with electromagnetic radiation, which is radio.
The Rugby installation of aerials for GBR on 16 kHz was for electromagnetic ie radio transmission. Initially for long distance communication (before short wave was used) and more recently submarine communication.
Cheers!
Quote/...Well then you will need a unit that's about 4 times as large to give more power output and longivity. But 25NM range: dream on unless you're talking of equipment capable of transmitting to submarines which is massive i.e Rugby." .../unquote.
You may have mixed up audio, albeit of high frequency, such as a pinger, bat or dog whistle makes; with electromagnetic radiation, which is radio.
The Rugby installation of aerials for GBR on 16 kHz was for electromagnetic ie radio transmission. Initially for long distance communication (before short wave was used) and more recently submarine communication.
Cheers!
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Channel News Asia quotes Indonesia's Directorate General of Marine Transport as confirming that the location of the black box has been determined. Retrieval will be attempted tomorrow morning.
Additional Edit: A further clarification by Channel News Asia says that the black box is believed to be wedged between pieces of wreckage. If divers cannot free it then the balloon method will also be employed to shift the wreckage.
Additional Edit: A further clarification by Channel News Asia says that the black box is believed to be wedged between pieces of wreckage. If divers cannot free it then the balloon method will also be employed to shift the wreckage.
Last edited by Blake777; 11th Jan 2015 at 12:23. Reason: Brain fag
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Nice to see "Professionalism"...
I'm not an aviator - but have flown many times in the right-hand-seat of the Australian RFDS (as an invited passenger - I'm a clinician)...
First flights in the late 80's were in a GAF Nomad (the famous Mike Sierra Foxtrot... then to the sophisticated Beechcraft King-Airs with (phew...) pressurised cabins...
Have followed PPruNe since MH370 - and now AF5801...
Great to see the input of professional people in the various spheres of aviation... Putting the pieces together much more informatively than the gung-ho media reporters in these sad times...
Well Done blokes... and Thank You...
First flights in the late 80's were in a GAF Nomad (the famous Mike Sierra Foxtrot... then to the sophisticated Beechcraft King-Airs with (phew...) pressurised cabins...
Have followed PPruNe since MH370 - and now AF5801...
Great to see the input of professional people in the various spheres of aviation... Putting the pieces together much more informatively than the gung-ho media reporters in these sad times...
Well Done blokes... and Thank You...
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Boomtown
Quote:
With regards to the twisted and crushed metal we are seeing - early reports cited gale force winds and waves up to 5 meters high. Is anyone able to comment what those sort of storm conditions would do to a (temporarily) floating airframe?
Are those loads capable of tearing apart what is an otherwise largely intact airframe?
The short answer is no. Most damage is done when waves push an object against rocks or grind it against a rocky seabed. A loose collection of objects floating offshore can also be ground against one another by wave action causing damage primarily around the edges, but not tearing and compression damage of the sort seen in the pictures currently circulating. All the indications are that the damage was done by a high velocity impact with the sea surface.
Quote:
With regards to the twisted and crushed metal we are seeing - early reports cited gale force winds and waves up to 5 meters high. Is anyone able to comment what those sort of storm conditions would do to a (temporarily) floating airframe?
Are those loads capable of tearing apart what is an otherwise largely intact airframe?
The short answer is no. Most damage is done when waves push an object against rocks or grind it against a rocky seabed. A loose collection of objects floating offshore can also be ground against one another by wave action causing damage primarily around the edges, but not tearing and compression damage of the sort seen in the pictures currently circulating. All the indications are that the damage was done by a high velocity impact with the sea surface.
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Airbus and Boeing could join together and demand high minimum standards to operate their equipment, and perhaps review and admit interface flaws
Did Audi and Toyota join together to resolve the "sudden acceleration" problem? Never. It took the pressure from many lawsuits to have both companies redesign their products. No regulators were involved, just the lawsuits and dwindling sales, because the customers no longer bought their products due to the flaws.
In aviation there are similarities, like impotent regulators, but even more differences. Mainly because there are not many choices to buy, factually a duopoly, and because it's never the direct user (pilot/passenger) who buys the product, but some remote beancounter who rarely expose his bum to the product. He only cares about the price tag and for a lesser one takes cynically into consideration some losses.
Redesign of known flaws happen very rarely in aviation. Mostly these glitches are simply handled with some badly written bulletins to pilots, thus cheaply handing the responsibility down the food chain.
There needs to be a hell of a lot more pressure from passenger associations via lawsuits, the press and their chosen politicians before anything changes.
But then again: Those same politicians nominate the regulators .....
BBC reporting that "Black Box" has been located but not yet retrieved owing to being buried in wreckage.
Not stated whether FDR or CVR.
Not stated whether FDR or CVR.
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Ian W and Air Scotia :
Maybe in the USA where there is an old " CB avoidance" culture and ATFM ( Flow management) organised through a single command centre which has direct access to the US Air Force areas .
Europe is also equipped with an advanced centralized ATFM system , but does not have the same weather pattern as in the equator/tropics or continental US. and there are 40+ airforces around to deal with.
A totally different picture that what is going on the rest of the world unfortunately , and definitively in South East Asia , where each Sate has its own air force and where countries are suspicious of one another and do not cooperate.
ATC is there to separate aircraft from one another also aircraft from penetrating reserved or restricted areas, and to comply with restrictions and demands made by teh next sectors( control centres) .
There is no standard " Miles in trail " separation applied by all. They vary depending on location and surveillance capabilities. , it can be 5 NM . can be 100 Miles (15 minutes) . It can be 5 NM in one sector , and 10 minutes at the transfer point for the next sector in a different Control Centre no equipped with same capabilities. Once established controllers have to follow that.
But, once again , the pilot has the decision on weather avoidance, not ATC . The pilot(s) can see in real time what the actual weather is , ATC cannot. If a request for deviation ( laterally or vertical ) cannot be approved by ATC ( due e.g. restricted or dangerous areas penetration or simply other traffic ) the PIC can deviate on his own bu just declaring on the R/T , " unable, turning or climbing now ". This then becomes an emergency situation , and ATC will help clearing the way. The PIC is always ultimately responsible for the safety of his flight.
To come back to this Air Asia case, I have seen no indication so far that the Pilot of this flight did not jut do that, but he did not tell ATC, so for me I think there must be something else, or the initial request to deviate came much too late.
ATC do precisely that.
Europe is also equipped with an advanced centralized ATFM system , but does not have the same weather pattern as in the equator/tropics or continental US. and there are 40+ airforces around to deal with.
A totally different picture that what is going on the rest of the world unfortunately , and definitively in South East Asia , where each Sate has its own air force and where countries are suspicious of one another and do not cooperate.
ATC is there to separate aircraft from one another also aircraft from penetrating reserved or restricted areas, and to comply with restrictions and demands made by teh next sectors( control centres) .
There is no standard " Miles in trail " separation applied by all. They vary depending on location and surveillance capabilities. , it can be 5 NM . can be 100 Miles (15 minutes) . It can be 5 NM in one sector , and 10 minutes at the transfer point for the next sector in a different Control Centre no equipped with same capabilities. Once established controllers have to follow that.
But, once again , the pilot has the decision on weather avoidance, not ATC . The pilot(s) can see in real time what the actual weather is , ATC cannot. If a request for deviation ( laterally or vertical ) cannot be approved by ATC ( due e.g. restricted or dangerous areas penetration or simply other traffic ) the PIC can deviate on his own bu just declaring on the R/T , " unable, turning or climbing now ". This then becomes an emergency situation , and ATC will help clearing the way. The PIC is always ultimately responsible for the safety of his flight.
To come back to this Air Asia case, I have seen no indication so far that the Pilot of this flight did not jut do that, but he did not tell ATC, so for me I think there must be something else, or the initial request to deviate came much too late.
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Which I believe was largely what the first poster was trying to say, albeit he has turned out to be wrong in 2 specific cases
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To come back to this Air Asia case, I have seen no indication so far that the Pilot of this flight did not jut do that, but he did not tell ATC, so for me I think there must be something else, or the initial request to deviate came much too late.
E.g., perhaps they unknowingly deviated into more severe weather, or got caught in a newly developing cell -- and then an still-unknown event (pilot error? systems error? structural failure?) became the probable cause of the accident.
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News reports coming through that the blackbox has been located, but not retrieved..
AirAsia QZ8501 black box found, say Indonesia authorities - Channel NewsAsia
AirAsia QZ8501 black box found, say Indonesia authorities - Channel NewsAsia
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Divers identified the location of the black box and marked the area for retrieval, Transport Ministry spokesman J.A. Barata said today, without specifying the exact location.
But they failed to retrieve it because it was stuck under debris from the main body of the plane, it added.
“The navy divers in Jadayat state boat have succeeded in finding a very important instrument, the black box of AirAsia QZ8501,” said Tonny Budiono, a senior ministry official, adding that it was at coordinate 03.37.21 South/109.42.42 East at a depth of between 30 to 32 metres.
"The black box is trapped under parts of fuselage. We will slowly move these obstacles out of the way, but if it does not succeed, we will lift the fuselage parts using a balloon like what we did to the plane's tail," Budiono said, adding that a small buoy marker had been placed at the location to make retrieval on Monday easier.
Strong ping signals were being picked up by three vessels involved in the search in the Java Sea, S.B Supriyadi, a director with the National Search and Rescue Agency, told reporters.
If weather conditions are conducive, “hopefully the vessels will recover the black box tomorrow morning,” said National Transportation Safety Committee investigator Santoso Sayogo.“The coordinates show the bottom of the sea (in that location) is sand so the divers should easily be able to see it.”
If and when the recorders are found and taken to the capital, Jakarta, for analysis, it could take up to two weeks to download data, investigators said, although the information could be accessed in as little as two days if the devices are not badly damaged
Those signals are coming from the seabed less than one kilometre from where the tail of the plane was found, Malaysian Navy chief Abdul Aziz Jaafar said in a post on Twitter. Malaysia’s Navy is helping in the search for flight QZ8501 that crashed into the sea two weeks ago, killing all 162 people on board.
But Supriyadi said powerful currents had again frustrated military divers in their search and they had to call off their efforts before sunset without reaching the origin of the signals, about 30m underwater.
“We sent divers to three spots, and they went down twice, but there is no result. They couldn’t find anything. The undercurrent was very strong,” Supriyadi said.
But they failed to retrieve it because it was stuck under debris from the main body of the plane, it added.
“The navy divers in Jadayat state boat have succeeded in finding a very important instrument, the black box of AirAsia QZ8501,” said Tonny Budiono, a senior ministry official, adding that it was at coordinate 03.37.21 South/109.42.42 East at a depth of between 30 to 32 metres.
"The black box is trapped under parts of fuselage. We will slowly move these obstacles out of the way, but if it does not succeed, we will lift the fuselage parts using a balloon like what we did to the plane's tail," Budiono said, adding that a small buoy marker had been placed at the location to make retrieval on Monday easier.
Strong ping signals were being picked up by three vessels involved in the search in the Java Sea, S.B Supriyadi, a director with the National Search and Rescue Agency, told reporters.
If weather conditions are conducive, “hopefully the vessels will recover the black box tomorrow morning,” said National Transportation Safety Committee investigator Santoso Sayogo.“The coordinates show the bottom of the sea (in that location) is sand so the divers should easily be able to see it.”
If and when the recorders are found and taken to the capital, Jakarta, for analysis, it could take up to two weeks to download data, investigators said, although the information could be accessed in as little as two days if the devices are not badly damaged
Those signals are coming from the seabed less than one kilometre from where the tail of the plane was found, Malaysian Navy chief Abdul Aziz Jaafar said in a post on Twitter. Malaysia’s Navy is helping in the search for flight QZ8501 that crashed into the sea two weeks ago, killing all 162 people on board.
But Supriyadi said powerful currents had again frustrated military divers in their search and they had to call off their efforts before sunset without reaching the origin of the signals, about 30m underwater.
“We sent divers to three spots, and they went down twice, but there is no result. They couldn’t find anything. The undercurrent was very strong,” Supriyadi said.
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This makes good sense:
[E.g., perhaps they unknowingly deviated into more severe weather, or got caught in a newly developing cell -- and then an still-unknown event (pilot error? systems error? structural failure?) became the probable cause of the accident.]
Discussing meteorology for a moment, convection is often fueled by daytime heating. The AirAsia event happened at sunrise. Was the convective system particularly unusual/the monsoon process particularly energetic? It seems that the AirAsia flight may have self-diverted into a rapidly developing thunderhead that blossomed up into the flight path at a rate that wasn't evident on the plane's radar. Unusual to have so much convective energy at sunrise but not impossible. It seems that recorded images of weather radar for this event merit further scrutiny.
Discussing meteorology for a moment, convection is often fueled by daytime heating. The AirAsia event happened at sunrise. Was the convective system particularly unusual/the monsoon process particularly energetic? It seems that the AirAsia flight may have self-diverted into a rapidly developing thunderhead that blossomed up into the flight path at a rate that wasn't evident on the plane's radar. Unusual to have so much convective energy at sunrise but not impossible. It seems that recorded images of weather radar for this event merit further scrutiny.
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I keep hearing that allegation. These modern radars are pretty impressive compared to the crap we worked with 30 years ago, so please explain what you mean by that. The only problem I see is the rote adherence to SOPs to 'set gain to CAL right NOW' whatever the conditions ahead! Just more robo-pilot training.
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Winterymix - convection intensity over the open ocean doesn't vary much day/night since sea surface temperatures have very little diurnal variation. However convection over the land not far from the LKP would decrease overnight leaving more 'airspace' over the adjacent sea for CBs to develop and peak towards dawn (without going into the broader scale MET dynamics). Also, the developing phase of CBs is the most active in terms of turbulence/hail/lightning/vertical motion so it's the brand new (towering CU/CB) cell which has just become visible to radar which is often the most dangerous.
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Thank's, Triskel
Nice clarification about convective threats in the environment of interest. So...what did the other several flights in the area at the time of interest know or did they simply get lucky?
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Wave action
"Boomtown
Quote:
With regards to the twisted and crushed metal we are seeing - early reports cited gale force winds and waves up to 5 meters high. Is anyone able to comment what those sort of storm conditions would do to a (temporarily) floating airframe?
Are those loads capable of tearing apart what is an otherwise largely intact airframe?
The short answer is no. Most damage is done when waves push an object against rocks or grind it against a rocky seabed. A loose collection of objects floating offshore can also be ground against one another by wave action causing damage primarily around the edges, but not tearing and compression damage of the sort seen in the pictures currently circulating. All the indications are that the damage was done by a high velocity impact with the sea surface."
I would concur with the no. Having been aboard a 50' boat in such conditions in water equally shallow, for stupid reasons I'm not going to get into, the impacts were severe, but not enough to break bones, bend seats, break glass, of anyone and anything secured. If you take a look at the fuselage of US 1549, it skidded across the Hudson and was bumped and hit by numerous rescue ships with metal hills and banged against the concrete wall at Battery Park, yet does not display the massive accordion crumple that we have seen in the instant incident.
Quote:
With regards to the twisted and crushed metal we are seeing - early reports cited gale force winds and waves up to 5 meters high. Is anyone able to comment what those sort of storm conditions would do to a (temporarily) floating airframe?
Are those loads capable of tearing apart what is an otherwise largely intact airframe?
The short answer is no. Most damage is done when waves push an object against rocks or grind it against a rocky seabed. A loose collection of objects floating offshore can also be ground against one another by wave action causing damage primarily around the edges, but not tearing and compression damage of the sort seen in the pictures currently circulating. All the indications are that the damage was done by a high velocity impact with the sea surface."
I would concur with the no. Having been aboard a 50' boat in such conditions in water equally shallow, for stupid reasons I'm not going to get into, the impacts were severe, but not enough to break bones, bend seats, break glass, of anyone and anything secured. If you take a look at the fuselage of US 1549, it skidded across the Hudson and was bumped and hit by numerous rescue ships with metal hills and banged against the concrete wall at Battery Park, yet does not display the massive accordion crumple that we have seen in the instant incident.
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@Ian W, many thanks. Can I ask if you know how many Miles In Trail would be thought sensible in a popcorn-thunderstorm area that's likely to have a lot of traffic?
BTW, when I googled 'Miles in Trail', I was startled to see that your own post in this thread, from half an hour ago, was one of the top results. Google's ability to track us in real time could give the airlines a lesson.
BTW, when I googled 'Miles in Trail', I was startled to see that your own post in this thread, from half an hour ago, was one of the top results. Google's ability to track us in real time could give the airlines a lesson.
http://www.fly.faa.gov/Products/Trai...oklet_ca10.pdf
Things have not changed significantly since that was written.