Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
Roseland and others, please note that after geting better image I revised my post #1472. THS position could not be determined from that picture. Will try to get in an A-320 tail to have a look and compare.
"Baloon" for lifting is actually a device, used underwater to lift things off the bottom to the surface. It is shaped like something between parachute and hot air baloon and filled with air from the bottom. Cannot lift things out of the water, you need crane for this. This device will change shape, fluff in the stream of water and lose air, so not much use if currents are strong-could even act like parachute and drag the whole thing downstream.
hoistop
"Baloon" for lifting is actually a device, used underwater to lift things off the bottom to the surface. It is shaped like something between parachute and hot air baloon and filled with air from the bottom. Cannot lift things out of the water, you need crane for this. This device will change shape, fluff in the stream of water and lose air, so not much use if currents are strong-could even act like parachute and drag the whole thing downstream.
hoistop
Last edited by hoistop; 8th Jan 2015 at 20:28.
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For those interested a very grainy video of this morning's dive efforts to inspect the tail section of the wreckage is available here. The letters PK come into view, but difficult to gain much more information from it.
LIVE BLOG: AirAsia flight QZ8501 crash, Day 12 - Channel NewsAsia
LIVE BLOG: AirAsia flight QZ8501 crash, Day 12 - Channel NewsAsia
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USA Today reports:
“.....Divers looking for the black boxes on Thursday were unable to make it past currents and 1-meter (3-foot) visibility, said Soelistyo.
He said efforts will be intensified Friday to lift up the tail — either by using lifting balloon or crane.
Ping-emitting beacons in the black boxes still have about 20 days of battery life, but high waves had prevented the deployment of ping locators, which are dragged by ships.
Six ships with ping locators were in the search area in the Java Sea, said Nurcahyo Utomo, an investigator of the National Commission for Transportation Safety.
Based on pictures taken by divers, he believed that the black boxes were still attached to their original location in the plane's tail.
"Once detected, we will try to find and lift up the black boxes as soon as possible," he said...."
He said efforts will be intensified Friday to lift up the tail — either by using lifting balloon or crane.
Ping-emitting beacons in the black boxes still have about 20 days of battery life, but high waves had prevented the deployment of ping locators, which are dragged by ships.
Six ships with ping locators were in the search area in the Java Sea, said Nurcahyo Utomo, an investigator of the National Commission for Transportation Safety.
Based on pictures taken by divers, he believed that the black boxes were still attached to their original location in the plane's tail.
"Once detected, we will try to find and lift up the black boxes as soon as possible," he said...."
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Originally Posted by PT6Driver
To all the airbus conspiracy theorists, at the moment we have no link betwean these events other than the fact the 2 aircraft were Airbus.
It is like comparing Boeing 777 to Boeing 737 events.
Because at the moment we have very few fact on which to base our deliberations.
It is like comparing Boeing 777 to Boeing 737 events.
Because at the moment we have very few fact on which to base our deliberations.
We do have a few facts now. The trick is to recognize the difference between facts and speculation.
Some of us feel that the ability of an Airbus to auto-trim nose up after the activation of stall warning (in Alternate Law) needs further examination. I for one will be watching the data like a hawk to see If that is a factor in this accident.
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Can someone with diving/SAR experience comment on the fact that underwater currents of 3-5 knots continue to hamper divers from entering the tail section of the aircraft or proceeding with salvage attempts/body recovery? (Although two bodies were successfully recovered today, others could not be.) It appears that whether the weather is adverse or favourable, the current is not going to change in a hurry. What is the best way forward in this situation?
Michael Phelps managed 47.51 seconds for 100m freestyle. That is fractionally over 4 knots, for 100m only, by a top class athlete in a heated indoor pool.
In human terms it's a powerful, dangerous current.
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I am a diver. 3-5 knots is a TON of current. In 3 knots you would have to swim very hard just to hold position. 3 knots is actually over Vne for most divers with all the gear on. I have done a dive called "The Current" near MYEH where the current runs 5-8 knots. It is a total thrill ride and obviously the boat goes to meet you at the other end. You come up on obstacles FAST and trying to work around anything with sharp edges or places that could trap you in that current would be 
In 5 knots it would take a fair amount of strength to just hang on to a line and you would be streaming from it horizontally like a flag.
The flying equivalent would be trying to hover a helicopter in winds at 120 knots gusting to 150.
@Blake777
Can someone with diving/SAR experience comment on the fact that underwater currents of 3-5 knots continue to hamper divers from entering the tail section of the aircraft or proceeding with salvage attempts/body recovery? (Although two bodies were successfully recovered today, others could not be.) It appears that whether the weather is adverse or favourable, the current is not going to change in a hurry. What is the best way forward in this situation?
In 5 knots it would take a fair amount of strength to just hang on to a line and you would be streaming from it horizontally like a flag.
The flying equivalent would be trying to hover a helicopter in winds at 120 knots gusting to 150.
@Blake777
Can someone with diving/SAR experience comment on the fact that underwater currents of 3-5 knots continue to hamper divers from entering the tail section of the aircraft or proceeding with salvage attempts/body recovery? (Although two bodies were successfully recovered today, others could not be.) It appears that whether the weather is adverse or favourable, the current is not going to change in a hurry. What is the best way forward in this situation?
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Not a diver but can understand the difficulties in 3+ knot currents. What is puzzling me, despite the constant droning of the media over how swift these underwater currents are, we are treated with video (like the one graciously posted lower last page) that appears to show the opposite. Divers meticulously poring over the tail section, with silt in the flashlight beams not really moving much at all, their exhausted gases rising vertically, and normal breathing ... in a nutshell it appears to be more similar to a training dive in a pool somewhere. What gives?
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It is entirely possible to have a surface current of 5 knots and 0 knots near the bottom. If that is the case, the easiest thing to do is grab the anchor line of the boat you are diving from and follow it to the bottom and reverse process to get back up.
Not a diver but can understand the difficulties in 3+ knot currents. What is puzzling me, despite the constant droning of the media over how swift these underwater currents are, we are treated with video (like the one graciously posted lower last page) that appears to show the opposite. Divers meticulously poring over the tail section, with silt in the flashlight beams not really moving much at all, their exhausted gases rising vertically, and normal breathing ... in a nutshell it appears to be more similar to a training dive in a pool somewhere. What gives?
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I wonder if a mental overload situation is almost inevitable with certain types of failures in the bus.
If the diver would have switched off the autofocus, there might be actually something to see in the video... This way it is absolutely useless.
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Not a diver but can understand the difficulties in 3+ knot currents. What is puzzling me, despite the constant droning of the media over how swift these underwater currents are, we are treated with video (like the one graciously posted lower last page) that appears to show the opposite. Divers meticulously poring over the tail section, with silt in the flashlight beams not really moving much at all, their exhausted gases rising vertically, and normal breathing ... in a nutshell it appears to be more similar to a training dive in a pool somewhere. What gives?
Last edited by BG47; 8th Jan 2015 at 16:01.
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FWIW re photos-video underwater and Black boxes
Since we can see a few windows - that section is in front of the aft pressure bulkhead. Some of the fittings may be aft( immediately behind the pressure bulkead ) AFIK and willing to stand corrected, the black boxes are typically mounted in structure which is AFT of the bulkhead. Which may mean that the black boxes are NOT on that section or are as suspected buried in the mud.
If on a section detached from the bulkhead, the Boxes could well be a few miles away ??
If on a section detached from the bulkhead, the Boxes could well be a few miles away ??
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This picture is of the area behind the bulkhead.
But it may be that the point where the plane broke apart is exactly where the recorders are.
Edit: - Just like AF447
But it may be that the point where the plane broke apart is exactly where the recorders are.
Edit: - Just like AF447
Last edited by Propduffer; 8th Jan 2015 at 16:25.
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I don't know whether this photo has been posted before, but I have only just seen this on a Twitter feed. It appears there is not much left of the tail section after if the letter ' Charlie' of the aicraft's registration.
Source: Twitter
Source: Twitter
It looks as though it broke away just between the rear doors and the last of the windows - roughly where the lavatories are, and around a 'fault line' in the structure according to this diagram:
http://www.spiritaero.com/assets/0/3...a7b050c731.jpg
though I doubt that is completely to scale.
http://www.spiritaero.com/assets/0/3...a7b050c731.jpg
though I doubt that is completely to scale.
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THS, currents, automation
We have one pic of purported bulkhead with THS by one A320 mechanic, a quite different pic found online purported to be A320 THS bulkhead, one post other than my previous noting the significant differences, and no further comments confirming one or the other. We've had no precise description of the structure on which the FDR is mounted, other than aft of the pressure bulkhead in the unpressurized tail. The FDR is on or near this bulkhead. Resolving the discrepancy should not be difficult given Prune readership.
If as multiply described the tail is resting semi-inverted on vertical fin and right horizontal stab, access to the FDR should not be impeded by mud. The obstacles to investigation/recovery via diving have been ocean 'currents'. Distinctions between 'current', 'tide', and current tidal interactions in the area of search have not been made. Search reports about the process all cite limited visibility and strong currents. The first tail pics came from a time of 'unusual brief current calm', of which there has been little of since. Hi tech remains subservient to mud and currents.
As a pilot, and from pilots I have known, very few of the heavy pilots would say "If I had been in his position I'd be dead now." The self confidence needed to overcome doubt during command too easily condemns those who ended up dead as inadequate in some way. Yet every pilot has in their history instances of 'What he hell is going on".
I find the vociferous arguments between posters here claiming piloting mastery of specific flight control systems, but having completely conflicting views about how things actually work in specific but not impossible situations to be very disconcerting. That is why the issues of specific complex systems and human interface won't go away. If 95% of posters here had the same opinion about how systems work in unusual situations there would be little discord, and a passenger could feel confident that training, experience, ATC and flight control system functionality were working together well.
The claim that flight control automation has saved more lives than it has cost, evidenced by lower accident rates, is an assertion that rides on the shoulders of improvements in component dependability, airframe structures, materials, aerodynamics, and better and more weather reporting. The claim may be true, but the amount of truth may be much lower if the safety improvements delivered by all other advances are removed from the calculation.
If as multiply described the tail is resting semi-inverted on vertical fin and right horizontal stab, access to the FDR should not be impeded by mud. The obstacles to investigation/recovery via diving have been ocean 'currents'. Distinctions between 'current', 'tide', and current tidal interactions in the area of search have not been made. Search reports about the process all cite limited visibility and strong currents. The first tail pics came from a time of 'unusual brief current calm', of which there has been little of since. Hi tech remains subservient to mud and currents.
As a pilot, and from pilots I have known, very few of the heavy pilots would say "If I had been in his position I'd be dead now." The self confidence needed to overcome doubt during command too easily condemns those who ended up dead as inadequate in some way. Yet every pilot has in their history instances of 'What he hell is going on".
I find the vociferous arguments between posters here claiming piloting mastery of specific flight control systems, but having completely conflicting views about how things actually work in specific but not impossible situations to be very disconcerting. That is why the issues of specific complex systems and human interface won't go away. If 95% of posters here had the same opinion about how systems work in unusual situations there would be little discord, and a passenger could feel confident that training, experience, ATC and flight control system functionality were working together well.
The claim that flight control automation has saved more lives than it has cost, evidenced by lower accident rates, is an assertion that rides on the shoulders of improvements in component dependability, airframe structures, materials, aerodynamics, and better and more weather reporting. The claim may be true, but the amount of truth may be much lower if the safety improvements delivered by all other advances are removed from the calculation.
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It looks to me that it broke up behind the pressure bulkhead. Compare this to the picture above. The pressure bulkhead is on the right, the jackscrew mount is on the left. This looks like the same place as the picture above is showing.
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There is something I don't understand about the flight condition this aircraft is assumed to have gotten itself into.
From what I've read here and elsewhere it seems that if a transport pilot who is trying to climb finds that he is ascending at a high rate (say 9,000 fpm), with airspeed dropping, the reaction from the pilot (or Hal inthe case of Airbus) is to pull out all the stops and push the yoke or the sidestick forward as far as it will go and even adjust stabilizer trim to get more nose down pitch - right?
It seems to me that any pilot who has flown gliders in the past would just smile ear to ear (and maybe even throw the plane into a sharp turn so as to not lose the updraft) while adding power to ward off any possibility of a stall and wait to kick out of the updraft if it hasn't already dissipated before delivering the craft to an altitude near the max altitude for the type.
Are planes and people being lost in order to stay within ATC assigned altitude?
From what I've read here and elsewhere it seems that if a transport pilot who is trying to climb finds that he is ascending at a high rate (say 9,000 fpm), with airspeed dropping, the reaction from the pilot (or Hal inthe case of Airbus) is to pull out all the stops and push the yoke or the sidestick forward as far as it will go and even adjust stabilizer trim to get more nose down pitch - right?
It seems to me that any pilot who has flown gliders in the past would just smile ear to ear (and maybe even throw the plane into a sharp turn so as to not lose the updraft) while adding power to ward off any possibility of a stall and wait to kick out of the updraft if it hasn't already dissipated before delivering the craft to an altitude near the max altitude for the type.
Are planes and people being lost in order to stay within ATC assigned altitude?
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Leightman 957:
Since no one knows what happened to this airplane yet, I can't see how anyone could say "I could do better than that" since we don't know what THAT even is yet other than the generic stay away from thunderstorms advice.
Propduffer: I was a right seat eyewitness to a plane about to be lost due to convective activity. The left seat PIC/student* was VERY willing to rip the plane up trying not to gain altitude and then managed to get a spiral dive going I had to take over to bail us out of the situation. Wings level, Va, and "unable to maintain altitude due to convective activity, we'll tell you when we level off" did the trick. 2,000 FPM + at idle power is a ride 
Until you get into ice or lack of O2 or mach limits or something 
* The student was already comm/ir rated, not a n00b I would expect to do something like that.
Since no one knows what happened to this airplane yet, I can't see how anyone could say "I could do better than that" since we don't know what THAT even is yet other than the generic stay away from thunderstorms advice.
Propduffer: I was a right seat eyewitness to a plane about to be lost due to convective activity. The left seat PIC/student* was VERY willing to rip the plane up trying not to gain altitude and then managed to get a spiral dive going
I had to take over to bail us out of the situation. Wings level, Va, and "unable to maintain altitude due to convective activity, we'll tell you when we level off" did the trick. 2,000 FPM + at idle power is a ride Until you get into ice or lack of O2 or mach limits or something * The student was already comm/ir rated, not a n00b I would expect to do something like that.
Last edited by island_airphoto; 8th Jan 2015 at 17:45.