Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
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Diving
As a diver with almost 30 years experience, diving with 3 to 6 inches of visibility when you know the terrain is as easy as an instrument approach through coastal fog with no wind. With a current and/or exploring even a well known wreck there's a high pucker factor.
Mick the slide was partially inflated so therefore the gauge would be reading low if the door had been smashed open on impact the slide would have or could have inflated.
A note on slide raft inflation
The escape slides do not have an inflation bottle big enough to fully inflate the slide. Instead, the bottles, when triggered by opening the door in auto, blow through a venturi which sucks the ambient air into the slide. An anti-deflation valve traps the resultant mass of air in the inflation chambers. Its a simple system with one moving part.
The downside is that, inflated underwater, the slide cannot fully inflate, and sucks in some water during the inflation sequence. This is why the 737 slides are not also rafts. A slightly better intake location on widebody slides allows them to double as rafts.
The downside is that, inflated underwater, the slide cannot fully inflate, and sucks in some water during the inflation sequence. This is why the 737 slides are not also rafts. A slightly better intake location on widebody slides allows them to double as rafts.
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Times Strait reports:
JAKARTA - Indonesia's transport ministry has ordered airport authorities to take action against staff who allowed Indonesia AirAsia to fly outside its approved schedule.
This comes after the ministry said the airline was not allowed to fly the Surabaya-Singapore route on Sunday. The missing flight QZ8501 had taken off on a Sunday.
"We issued orders to them to move these staff from a position related to flight operations," Djoko Murjatmodjo, acting director general of air transportation, said on Monday.
If there were staff from the transport ministry who were also involved, the ministry will take action against them, he added.
"Investigation is ongoing now. We won't apply a double standard stance. We wont discriminate."
The transport ministry is currently checking the airline's flight schedule to see if they match the airline's permits or agreements, he said.
Additional report on Strait Times:
“....The Basarnas chief said five vessels with the ability to locate black boxes would be deployed on Monday.
On Sunday, the search fleet included six fixed wing planes (four from Indonesia, one each from South Korea and Russia), 14 helicopters (10 from indonesia, two from Singapore and two from the US) and 27 ships (16 from Indonesia including two tankers to help with logistics and fuel, four from Singapore, three from Malaysia, two from the US and two from Japan).
KRI Bung Tomo, the main Indonesian vessel that had helped with sonar detection work, was sent home and was replaced by two vessels on Sunday: KRI Usman Harun and KRI Frans Kaisepo, which also have sonar beaming equipment, he said...."
This comes after the ministry said the airline was not allowed to fly the Surabaya-Singapore route on Sunday. The missing flight QZ8501 had taken off on a Sunday.
"We issued orders to them to move these staff from a position related to flight operations," Djoko Murjatmodjo, acting director general of air transportation, said on Monday.
If there were staff from the transport ministry who were also involved, the ministry will take action against them, he added.
"Investigation is ongoing now. We won't apply a double standard stance. We wont discriminate."
The transport ministry is currently checking the airline's flight schedule to see if they match the airline's permits or agreements, he said.
Additional report on Strait Times:
“....The Basarnas chief said five vessels with the ability to locate black boxes would be deployed on Monday.
On Sunday, the search fleet included six fixed wing planes (four from Indonesia, one each from South Korea and Russia), 14 helicopters (10 from indonesia, two from Singapore and two from the US) and 27 ships (16 from Indonesia including two tankers to help with logistics and fuel, four from Singapore, three from Malaysia, two from the US and two from Japan).
KRI Bung Tomo, the main Indonesian vessel that had helped with sonar detection work, was sent home and was replaced by two vessels on Sunday: KRI Usman Harun and KRI Frans Kaisepo, which also have sonar beaming equipment, he said...."
And here comes the typical knee jerk reaction from the minister for transport and their over simplistic band-aid solutions to a much larger problem in Indonesia.
AirAsia Flight QZ8501: Indonesia mandates pilot briefings before flight departure - South-east Asia News & Top Stories - The Straits Times
Pilot briefing officers went out of fashion about 25 years ago in Australia because the Dept Of Civil Aviation realized pilots were capable of decoding a TAF and Area Forecast themselves without the aid of a talking head.
AirAsia Flight QZ8501: Indonesia mandates pilot briefings before flight departure - South-east Asia News & Top Stories - The Straits Times
Pilot briefing officers went out of fashion about 25 years ago in Australia because the Dept Of Civil Aviation realized pilots were capable of decoding a TAF and Area Forecast themselves without the aid of a talking head.
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Weather briefing
Regarding the lack of Weather briefing prior departure :
Yes it might not really be a contributing factor to the actual accident but if proven true , it is in breach of regulations and for the insurance companies an open hangar door.
Plus it seems to become a local political football between the proponents of a strong regulator (State) and the proponents of liberal free enterprise ( the new privately owed airlines ) who do not like too much restrictive rules.
What this whole circus shows is the total inability of the State to control and regulate properly its airlines , but we knew that already from the EU ban .
Yes it might not really be a contributing factor to the actual accident but if proven true , it is in breach of regulations and for the insurance companies an open hangar door.
Plus it seems to become a local political football between the proponents of a strong regulator (State) and the proponents of liberal free enterprise ( the new privately owed airlines ) who do not like too much restrictive rules.
What this whole circus shows is the total inability of the State to control and regulate properly its airlines , but we knew that already from the EU ban .
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Things work differently in Indonesia than in the US or Europe. The official rules and the real rules don't really have as much overlap as you might expect. This is true both regarding insurance and regulations. Put another way, rules in Indonesia are flexible things but there is a lot of scrutiny into how they are bent.
The issue in this case may well be that the insurers are European, not Indonesian, and therefore play by the official rules rather than 'local rules', if you take my meaning.
If the flight was not authorised under the terms of the official Indonesian AOC, licenses, and permits, they might well regard that as reasonable excuse to invalidate the cover. Insurance operates under the legal doctrine of 'utmost good faith', remember.
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Jakarta Post reports: surabaya mayor provides insurance law experts
Surabaya Mayor Tri Rismaharini has offered experts on insurance law from Surabaya Airlangga University, East Java, to help the families of the victims on AirAsia flight QZ8501, which crashed into the Karimata Strait.
“I don’t understand law in the insurance world. That’s why I asked insurance law experts from Airlangga University to assist the victims’ families,” Risma, as the mayor is affectionately called, told The Jakarta Post, Sunday.
Risma said that the experts would assist the victims’ families by examining the calculated insurance values and reading the insurance contract thoroughly so they would not become victims again.
“I want AirAsia to pay to the victims’ families thoroughly,” she said.
She added that assistance would be available for non-Surabayans as well and that she was ready to help communicate with heads of the regions where the respective victims originally came from.
Risma said that all the data concerning the victims who originally came from Surabaya had been collected 12 hours after the aircraft lost contact with Jakarta air traffic control and was sent to banks and insurance offices.
Ronny Tanubun who represented passenger Adrian Fernando, 13, of Surabaya welcomed the mayor’s move, saying that it was the right step to take as most of the families of the flight accident victims did not understand insurance.
“I conveyed my misgivings to Bu Risma after receiving the calculated insurance payments from AirAsia several days ago,” Ronny said.
The aircraft plunged into the Java Sea along with its 155 passengers and 7 crew on Dec. 28. Most of the passengers were Surabaya residents.
AirAsia President Director Sunu Widyatmoko did not respond to the question regarding the insurance payments during a press briefing conducted at the East Java police’s crisis center.
Previously, AirAsia CEO Tony Fernandes said that his company would take full responsibility for all the victims and crew members of the ill-fated flight and would provide compensation for the families of the victims.
Separately, chairman of the East Java branch of the Consumer Protection Institute Foundation (YLPK), Said Sutomo, said his office was preparing to sue AirAsia if investigations revealed that the company violated flight license and passenger safety procedures.
“I don’t understand law in the insurance world. That’s why I asked insurance law experts from Airlangga University to assist the victims’ families,” Risma, as the mayor is affectionately called, told The Jakarta Post, Sunday.
Risma said that the experts would assist the victims’ families by examining the calculated insurance values and reading the insurance contract thoroughly so they would not become victims again.
“I want AirAsia to pay to the victims’ families thoroughly,” she said.
She added that assistance would be available for non-Surabayans as well and that she was ready to help communicate with heads of the regions where the respective victims originally came from.
Risma said that all the data concerning the victims who originally came from Surabaya had been collected 12 hours after the aircraft lost contact with Jakarta air traffic control and was sent to banks and insurance offices.
Ronny Tanubun who represented passenger Adrian Fernando, 13, of Surabaya welcomed the mayor’s move, saying that it was the right step to take as most of the families of the flight accident victims did not understand insurance.
“I conveyed my misgivings to Bu Risma after receiving the calculated insurance payments from AirAsia several days ago,” Ronny said.
The aircraft plunged into the Java Sea along with its 155 passengers and 7 crew on Dec. 28. Most of the passengers were Surabaya residents.
AirAsia President Director Sunu Widyatmoko did not respond to the question regarding the insurance payments during a press briefing conducted at the East Java police’s crisis center.
Previously, AirAsia CEO Tony Fernandes said that his company would take full responsibility for all the victims and crew members of the ill-fated flight and would provide compensation for the families of the victims.
Separately, chairman of the East Java branch of the Consumer Protection Institute Foundation (YLPK), Said Sutomo, said his office was preparing to sue AirAsia if investigations revealed that the company violated flight license and passenger safety procedures.
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Allianz is the leaded insurer for AirAsia
Allianz SE (German pronunciation: [ˈaliants] ( listen), al-i-ənts) is a German multinational financial services company headquartered in Munich. Its core business and focus is insurance. As of 2013, it is the world's largest insurance company, the 11th-largest financial services group and 25th-largest company according to a composite measure by Forbes magazine, as well as the largest financial services company when measured by 2012 revenue.
Its Allianz Global Investors division ranks as a top-five global active investment manager, having €1,443 billion of assets under management (AuM), of which €1,131 billion are third-party assets (as of 2010-09-30), with specialized asset managers including PIMCO (bonds), RCM (equities) and Degi (real estate).
The company also owns Euler Hermes, one of the largest credit insurance company in the world.
(note that Allianz has offices on every continent including throughout Asia with their Asia Headquarters in Singapore)
Its Allianz Global Investors division ranks as a top-five global active investment manager, having €1,443 billion of assets under management (AuM), of which €1,131 billion are third-party assets (as of 2010-09-30), with specialized asset managers including PIMCO (bonds), RCM (equities) and Degi (real estate).
The company also owns Euler Hermes, one of the largest credit insurance company in the world.
(note that Allianz has offices on every continent including throughout Asia with their Asia Headquarters in Singapore)
Notwithstanding instructions in company operations manuals it's interesting to note that in the UK ANO under pre flight action of the commander of an aircraft that he/she shall obtain weather before flight that is "reasonably practical to obtain".
I know this is another part of the world but it would be interesting to see what ICAO says on this.
Sometimes you cannot get certain elements of weather before flight. It has been stated earlier in this thread that at the time of day of crew report the met services were often unavailable. In this day and age there are many other online ways of getting weather information many if which are better than some facilities at certain airports.
With respect to the Sig Weather charts it's interesting to look up the definitions of Isolated and Occasional - the former is up to 25% coverage and can "EASILY" be avoided, the latter 50% and can be avoided. On that basis a planned flight through those areas seems quite reasonable to me.
I know this is another part of the world but it would be interesting to see what ICAO says on this.
Sometimes you cannot get certain elements of weather before flight. It has been stated earlier in this thread that at the time of day of crew report the met services were often unavailable. In this day and age there are many other online ways of getting weather information many if which are better than some facilities at certain airports.
With respect to the Sig Weather charts it's interesting to look up the definitions of Isolated and Occasional - the former is up to 25% coverage and can "EASILY" be avoided, the latter 50% and can be avoided. On that basis a planned flight through those areas seems quite reasonable to me.
Last edited by fireflybob; 5th Jan 2015 at 08:11.
Surabaya Mayor Tri Rismaharini has offered experts on insurance law from Surabaya Airlangga University, East Java, to help the families of the victims on AirAsia flight QZ8501, which crashed into the Karimata Strait.
“I don’t understand law in the insurance world. That’s why I asked insurance law experts from Airlangga University to assist the victims’ families,” Risma, as the mayor is affectionately called, told The Jakarta Post, Sunday.
Risma said that the experts would assist the victims’ families by examining the calculated insurance values and reading the insurance contract thoroughly so they would not become victims again.
“I want AirAsia to pay to the victims’ families thoroughly,” she said.
“I don’t understand law in the insurance world. That’s why I asked insurance law experts from Airlangga University to assist the victims’ families,” Risma, as the mayor is affectionately called, told The Jakarta Post, Sunday.
Risma said that the experts would assist the victims’ families by examining the calculated insurance values and reading the insurance contract thoroughly so they would not become victims again.
“I want AirAsia to pay to the victims’ families thoroughly,” she said.
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Transport Minister Ignasius Jonan became angry on Friday that AirAsia pilots had not physically picked up weather forecasts and had not been briefed in person at the meteorology office at the airport. After the meeting, he banned AirAsia from flying the Singapore to Surabaya route, saying their licence did not allow them to fly on Sunday, the day of the fatal flight.
But pilots say they get their weather information from the internet, and are diligent in using it.
Senior pilot Sardjono Jhony Tjitrokusumo bit back at the minister in a press statement saying: "Don't make things up and say pilots are at fault for not undergoing briefings — it is not part of the required procedures [before taking off]."
But pilots say they get their weather information from the internet, and are diligent in using it.
Senior pilot Sardjono Jhony Tjitrokusumo bit back at the minister in a press statement saying: "Don't make things up and say pilots are at fault for not undergoing briefings — it is not part of the required procedures [before taking off]."
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normal departure time ?
What was the normal departure time for this flight and if it took off much earlier than usual why ?
'We were late'
An aversion to phone messages may have spared another family.
Christianawati was going to ring in the New Year in Singapore with her family and her brother's family, she told a French news agency. Ten were traveling in all.
But her brother forgot to check messages from AirAsia telling them that the flight was leaving two hours before the original departure time.
"They emailed and called us on December 15 and 16 to inform us, but we missed those calls," Christianawati, who goes by one name, told Agence France-Presse.
"So we arrived at the airport to check in for the 7:30 a.m. flight but were told our flights had been rescheduled to 5:30 a.m., and we were late. Of course we were angry," she said.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/31/wo...ortunate-ones/
An aversion to phone messages may have spared another family.
Christianawati was going to ring in the New Year in Singapore with her family and her brother's family, she told a French news agency. Ten were traveling in all.
But her brother forgot to check messages from AirAsia telling them that the flight was leaving two hours before the original departure time.
"They emailed and called us on December 15 and 16 to inform us, but we missed those calls," Christianawati, who goes by one name, told Agence France-Presse.
"So we arrived at the airport to check in for the 7:30 a.m. flight but were told our flights had been rescheduled to 5:30 a.m., and we were late. Of course we were angry," she said.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/31/wo...ortunate-ones/
Last edited by aseanaero; 5th Jan 2015 at 08:21.
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AirAsia flight QZ8501: Debris found not sufficient to determine cause of crash
Mr Nurcahyo said the escape slides from both sides of the rear of the aircraft have been found by searchers, not because they were deployed, but because of the force of the impact.
"We also found the broken containers, so there was no emergency landing – they simply didn't have time to open the door."
"We also found the broken containers, so there was no emergency landing – they simply didn't have time to open the door."
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I wrote this meteorological analysis, which contains the SigWx and upper wind charts in question.
Indonesia Air Asia 8501: A Meteorological Analysis | Irish Weather Online
Indonesia Air Asia 8501: A Meteorological Analysis | Irish Weather Online
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Fireflybob :
What ICAO says is a recommended practice, not the Country regulation .
I do not know what Indonesian AIP is saying , no time/will to check.
But what is in that AIP is what should have been done.
In most States the term " MET briefing " is not a mandatory one as you can depart from airport which do not have a Met office, or even ATC, therefore you normally have " as far as practicable " in there but again I do not know what Indonesia has written .
What everybody normally has is a rule that before any flight you must inform yourself of relevant weather en route and carry the appropriate Wx charts with you.(paper or electronic). If this has not been done then you indeed have a problem . As I understand from locals ,the Surabaya airport met office prepared the paperwork for that flight and delivered it after the aircraft had departed , as it took off well ahead of shedule. That is apparently one of the issues .
I know this is another part of the world but it would be interesting to see what ICAO says on this.
I do not know what Indonesian AIP is saying , no time/will to check.
But what is in that AIP is what should have been done.
In most States the term " MET briefing " is not a mandatory one as you can depart from airport which do not have a Met office, or even ATC, therefore you normally have " as far as practicable " in there but again I do not know what Indonesia has written .
What everybody normally has is a rule that before any flight you must inform yourself of relevant weather en route and carry the appropriate Wx charts with you.(paper or electronic). If this has not been done then you indeed have a problem . As I understand from locals ,the Surabaya airport met office prepared the paperwork for that flight and delivered it after the aircraft had departed , as it took off well ahead of shedule. That is apparently one of the issues .
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Proof
I'm a little fed up of the constant drip feeding from the local authorities. It seems every day they've located yet another large piece of the jet, first it was with the mk1. eyeball, now it is with sonar.
It is reminiscent of the constant press gatherings of MH370 which were half truths and lies just to make it look like they had been busy and we're making progress. When I see proof, I will believe them. However I have a feeling they know only a very general area of where the jet is based on floating debris, and nothing more.
A culture where saving face and looking all knowing is not conducive to a professional and accurate recovery mission nor subsequent investigation.
It is reminiscent of the constant press gatherings of MH370 which were half truths and lies just to make it look like they had been busy and we're making progress. When I see proof, I will believe them. However I have a feeling they know only a very general area of where the jet is based on floating debris, and nothing more.
A culture where saving face and looking all knowing is not conducive to a professional and accurate recovery mission nor subsequent investigation.
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Surabaya Mayor Tri Rismaharini has offered experts on insurance law from Surabaya Airlangga University, East Java, to help the families of the victims on AirAsia flight QZ8501, which crashed into the Karimata Strait.
[snip]
Risma said that the experts would assist the victims’ families by examining the calculated insurance values and reading the insurance contract thoroughly so they would not become victims again.
“I want AirAsia to pay to the victims’ families thoroughly,” she said.
[snip]
Risma said that the experts would assist the victims’ families by examining the calculated insurance values and reading the insurance contract thoroughly so they would not become victims again.
“I want AirAsia to pay to the victims’ families thoroughly,” she said.
*Indonesia has ratified the Warsaw Convention but not the more modern Montreal Convention
*Malaysia has ratified the Montreal Convention
*Limit of liability under the Warsaw Convention is about $24,000 USD.
*Limit of liability under the Montreal Convention is about $170,000 USD
*An airline can be sued at its principal place of business under both conventions. There are good arguments for this being either Indonesia or Malaysia. The airline would certainly seem to be run from Malaysia.
*The carrier is prima facie liable for a death from an incident on its airplane unless it has taken all necessary measures to avoid the death under both the Warsaw and Montreal Conventions.