Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

[The Ancient Geek]

However, recovery from a stall requires:

1. reduce AoA, and
2. regain airspeed

Training emphasis has recently shifted towards the first, and I miss that in his post.

Adding power to regain airspeed is NOT the way to recover from a stall.
Underwing engines will create a pitch up force when power is added so it is essential to get the nose down FIRST before making matters worse by adding power.
Once the wing has been unloaded and the AoA is correct power can be added carefully to regain speed or minimise loss of altitude.

[fireflybob]

it is essential to get the nose down FIRST

What if the nose is already down? (A/c can stall in any attitude and airspeed).

Better to say "move the control column (or sidestick) centrally forward until the stall identification ceases" - then recover from the resultant unusual attitude.

[Ian W]

Originally Posted by Jet Jockey A4

Sorry for the slight detour off thread but since they brought up the subject of Baro Altitude versus GPS Altitude I'm curious...

Besides the fact the Earth is not perfectly round thus rendering wrong GPS altitudes information (now taken care of by software adjustments), isn't one of the major problems for using GPS altitude the fact that we fly a constant pressure wave/altitude as we set 29.92/1013 on our altimeters and this pressure wave is not at a constant altitude above the Earth's surface?

When I look at our GPS altitude in our FMS, sometimes it is 1000 feet if not more off the Baro altitude and sometimes it is really close but I have never seen them match each other.

Could/can they even have a solution to solve this problem?

Also since aircraft performance is based on a "standard pressure" and if we now decide to switch to GPS altitude and now fly a "true" altitude above the Earth's surface how would that affect the aircraft's performance because now instead of being at a constant FL410 pressure altitude you might be at a 42,300 feet altitude?

The answer is that everyone has to fly using the same datum. (Posted earlier) So either everyone flies on GPS altitude or on a pressure datum altitude. For engines pressure is important as is temperature with temperature sometimes having more impact. As I posted earlier as you follow the pressure level you will descend and climb along that pressure level. This is an issue that is in the 'too difficult' pile at the moment but will eventually have to be approached as satellite based systems become more ubiquitous and reliable. The question will be which of the systems is more efficient from a fuel burn point of view and which is the safest. A brief read of the NASA ASRS (confidential reporting system) is frightening for the number of altimeter setting errors. If the decision was to be made without all existing grandfathered in altimetry equipment and procedures, nobody would ever suggest using barometers (altimeters) with multiple datum changes for measuring aircraft altitude.

[Frequent_Flyer]

Can Aviation Medicine give clues?

Hello there,
I'm a flight attendant so I hope you do not mind me posting and asking the following which came to my mind:
-One of the people 'fished out' of the sea was a flight attendant.
-She seems to have ben burried at the speed of light.
Question: Why is there no information on an autopsy on her or other PAX?
Afterall, an autopsy can probably give vital clues to this incident. For example, hypoxia, level of stress an fear, certain organ damage can be examined and provide clues to whether there was discompression, whether people had time to get scared etc. Just like autopsys would be performed with any incident on ground where people have died and a criminal investigation in neccessary.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts ladies and gents!

[Evey_Hammond]

I also have the same question as Frequent_Flyer and equally with no morbid curiosity. One thing that would be determined in an autopsy is whether there is water in the lungs of the deceased which would end speculation regarding whether the person was alive or dead when the plane hit the water.

[ACLS65]

There is a whole host of information that can be gathered about the crash from the autopsies of the victims. The details are pretty morbid, but the information could be critical.

Though it tends to become news fodder it is really a key part of the investigation. See the link below regarding AA587 as an example of the information gained.

Victim Fragmentation Patterns and Seat Location Supplements Crash Data: American Airlines Flight 587 | Amy Mundorff - Academia.edu

[Livesinafield]

I also have the same question as Frequent_Flyer and equally with no morbid curiosity. One thing that would be determined in an autopsy is whether there is water in the lungs of the deceased which would end speculation regarding whether the person was alive or dead when the plane hit the water.

If the bodies have been submerged for a few days then everything will be full of water regardless of whether they are breathing at the time or not

[deadheader]

Missing clues or confident of cause?

"Doctors have said they are not attempting to establish a cause of death. Their focus is on identifying victims quickly and returning them to their families".

AirAsia flight QZ8501: 30 bodies recovered after six days of searching

[Organfreak]

Condition of Bodies

Deepest apologies if this has already been said; I am two pages behind in catching up here:

Also - and echoing an earlier post - no information has come out about the cause of death identified in the bodies brought back to shore. Distressing as it is to the families, the condition of the bodies may be an important clue as to what happened to the plane.

I can't speak with any authority whatsoever, since I can't fly (and that's a good thing), but the fact that the bodies recovered so far are, apparently, relatively intact, gives the lie to the preposterous speculation that the airplane was pointed straight down at impact. Wouldn't we have nothing left but small fragments in case of a high-velocity impact?

By the same token, if there had been a "water landing," you'd likely expect some death by drowning autopsy results.

[Bobman84]

Originally Posted by deadheader

"Doctors have said they are not attempting to establish a cause of death. Their focus is on identifying victims quickly and returning them to their families".

Can understand the need to return the victims' bodies to their families, but not investigating the cause of death is a pity as it helps understand the final events a little better and if anyone suffered.

[jcjeant]

Frequent FlyerQuestion:
Why is there no information on an autopsy on her or other PAX?
Afterall, an autopsy can probably give vital clues to this incident. For example, hypoxia, level of stress an fear, certain organ damage can be examined and provide clues to whether there was discompression, whether people had time to get scared etc. Just like autopsys would be performed with any incident on ground where people have died and a criminal investigation in neccessary.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts ladies and gents! Thanx.

Will be released in due time and certainly a summary (as usual) in the final investigation report
Note that the general public is not a partie of the criminal investigation .. as usual

[langleybaston]

If the accident were, for example, under British jurisdiction surely autopsies would be deemed essential, regardless of religious sensitivities?

[Leightman 957]

Debris

Not many pics of debris yet. This appears to be another view of same debris as in earlier posts here. Some readers may recognize pieces and, more importantly, call attention to details that suggest the type of forces involved in the ac coming apart.
BBC News - AirAsia QZ8501: Search for plane focuses on seabed

[oldoberon]

Surely any/all religious practices/requirements/preferences/rites etc should be secondary to the legal requirements of a crash investigation, after all some crashes are crime scenes.

SAMPUBLIUS, yep it's not wood, as you say fibreglass panels. From A320?, the hose appears to be an air feed or extraction for filtration.

[londonman]

Unfortunately, with some religions they override any concept of what we in the West might expect in our culture with respect to establishing cause of death, crash investigation.

[DrPhillipa]

Indonesia is constitutionally a secular state. It also seems that these flights actually serve a large proportion of ethnic chinese Christians.

[peekay4]

Unfortunately, with some religions they override any concept of what we in the West might expect in our culture with respect to establishing cause of death, crash investigation.

This has nothing to do with religion.

What Indonesia is doing is standard practice for large aircraft accidents in most countries (including major accidents in the U.S.) It would be highly impractical and extremely time consuming to conduct detailed autopsies -- to the point of determining the cause of death -- for all 162 victims.

Instead, an abbreviated autopsy is performed on each victim primarily to establish the victim's identity. In Indonesia, this is done under Police jurisdiction (from DVI -- Disaster Victim Identification unit).

Typically all victims are photographed, x-rayed (including dental x-rays) and fingerprinted. DNA samples may be taken from soft tissue, especially on limbs recovered without a body. Toxicology drug/alcohol samples may be obtained from some victims (typically any identified cockpit crew).

Major internal & external injuries are also noted, along with any foreign material found (embedded debris, shrapnel), burn marks, etc. E.g., "left tibia broken, right lung lacerated, body intact, no burn marks, no water in lung".

All of the information will be consolidated into a database, for later investigation by the National Transportation Safety Committee.

As an example, a similar abbreviated process was used in the US even on the TWA800 crash -- when the FBI suspected that a bomb might have downed the airplane.

[DrGitfinger]

Some of the photos here (choose A320 in the menu on the left and then "Overhead bins") show hoses which look rather like that visible in the pictures of that collection of debris.

[formulaben]

However, recovery from a stall requires:

1. reduce AoA, and
2. regain airspeed

Well, you're half right.

[island_airphoto]

Anyone remember "step on sky"? Unload the plane to zero AOA and use rudder to level the wings
Works great on some airplanes, AA over Long Island not so much