Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's what I don't fully grasp (and won't until the FDR is recovered): the Captain had time on a F16. My understanding is that the F16 sidestick does not give feedback and moves very little. And obviously the F16 is a FBW aircraft as well. I would think this captain would have had one of the best shots at recovering the aircraft, if it was indeed upset by wx as is suspected. He should have also been very familiar with stall regimes at least on the F16 and I would suspect would have at least tried a few things in the sim.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Airbus Weather Radar
Does anyone agree that the current Airbus Weather Radars aren't as good as they used to be ? I've noted the following :
1) Weather picture suddenly changes from yellow to red as you approach closer to the cloud.
2) Auto-tilt is overly conservative (tilt down). Manual tilt needs to be used often.
3) Gaps between clouds disappear as you approach closer.
Does anyone agree that the current Airbus Weather Radars aren't as good as they used to be ? I've noted the following :
1) Weather picture suddenly changes from yellow to red as you approach closer to the cloud.
2) Auto-tilt is overly conservative (tilt down). Manual tilt needs to be used often.
3) Gaps between clouds disappear as you approach closer.
Point 3; I am afraid that's standard radar - the FCTM covers this quite well.
Hopefully this is an opportunity for the industry to self reflect and ask if current radar training is effective.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Cornwall
Age: 68
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NigelOnDraft
Of course stall warning does come from the AoA sensors. What I'm saying is that if the AoA sensors are below the range where they give accurate readings then the stall warning should be sounding.
Did you have an answer about the implications of a faulty LGCIU triggering a change to Ground Mode?
Of course stall warning does come from the AoA sensors. What I'm saying is that if the AoA sensors are below the range where they give accurate readings then the stall warning should be sounding.
Did you have an answer about the implications of a faulty LGCIU triggering a change to Ground Mode?
John Farley,
I was taught the same - and very good advice it was too!
I was taught the same - and very good advice it was too!
Join Date: May 2013
Location: home
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is not AF447 thread
What is the point of debating AF crash here? We don't even know what has happened in this case, let alone looking for similarities!
Posting about AF here is just trolling and polluting. If you feel the need to attack plane maker A, do it elsewhere. Who is responding should just avoid the blatant, unmotivated provocation that leads to an hamster wheel that is even off topic.
Any other subject would be appropriate, for example noting that acoustic ping search has, for now, failed. No black box 'pings' detected in AirAsia search as officials identify body of flight attendant | South China Morning Post
Posting about AF here is just trolling and polluting. If you feel the need to attack plane maker A, do it elsewhere. Who is responding should just avoid the blatant, unmotivated provocation that leads to an hamster wheel that is even off topic.
Any other subject would be appropriate, for example noting that acoustic ping search has, for now, failed. No black box 'pings' detected in AirAsia search as officials identify body of flight attendant | South China Morning Post
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: On the equator
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It has been reported that the failure to detect any pings from the black boxes may be due to the rough weather being experienced today where 2 to 4 waves have been reported. A case of too much background noise in such conditions, to be able to detect the pings. Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course stall warning does come from the AoA sensors. What I'm saying is that if the AoA sensors are below the range where they give accurate readings then the stall warning should be sounding.
As I said above, I think the 60KIAs / Stall warn on/off, is somewhat a red herring in this accident. If the circumstances and/or crew get an airliner (as this crew did) to below 60KIAS I think it is probably game over, and no amount of training or certification can cater for it? You're better off (as has happened to a degree) stopping the crew getting below 60KIAS / 40AoA in the first place
NoD
RE: F-16 stick and stall
Now that we have had AF447 hijack the thread, I may as well jump in where can contribute.
- The Viper stick might move 1/8 inch nowadays, but moved zero on first 40 or so ( I was in first squadron). So the family model was tuff because you could not see or feel what Joe Baggodonuts was doing up front, heh heh.
- The Viper has stall/AoA protection!! The criteria are vastly different than for the 'bus, but sameo sameo " you can't stall this plane". But wait!! Clever pilots/crews can do so, and procedure is the same for the Viper as for the 'bus.
Pull up and hold a high pitch atttude and then slow down before power can help your energy. You overshoot the AoA limiter. Unlike the 'bus, the Viper has a "deep stall" and not the "deeply stalled" condtion the AF447 crew saw. It has a pitch coefficient at 40 - 45 degrees AoA that prevents nose down and will sit there falling like a rock and happy as can be. Rudder anti-spin control law keeps nose reasonably under control. The elevators are fully deflected to get the nose down, but can't. So a manual switch takes away the limiters and you are in "direct" control of the elevators. Strangely, you still have positive pitch coefficient, so raise the nose and "rock" your way outta the stall.
Hope that helps.
- The Viper stick might move 1/8 inch nowadays, but moved zero on first 40 or so ( I was in first squadron). So the family model was tuff because you could not see or feel what Joe Baggodonuts was doing up front, heh heh.
- The Viper has stall/AoA protection!! The criteria are vastly different than for the 'bus, but sameo sameo " you can't stall this plane". But wait!! Clever pilots/crews can do so, and procedure is the same for the Viper as for the 'bus.
Pull up and hold a high pitch atttude and then slow down before power can help your energy. You overshoot the AoA limiter. Unlike the 'bus, the Viper has a "deep stall" and not the "deeply stalled" condtion the AF447 crew saw. It has a pitch coefficient at 40 - 45 degrees AoA that prevents nose down and will sit there falling like a rock and happy as can be. Rudder anti-spin control law keeps nose reasonably under control. The elevators are fully deflected to get the nose down, but can't. So a manual switch takes away the limiters and you are in "direct" control of the elevators. Strangely, you still have positive pitch coefficient, so raise the nose and "rock" your way outta the stall.
Hope that helps.
Last edited by gums; 1st Jan 2015 at 17:21. Reason: technical error, spelling
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Washstate
Age: 79
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE The Bus allows 2 people to work against each other
Cant help but wondering why both a feedback loop and some sort of vibrator on the sidearm controller when a discrepency re position/command is above a certain value say 5 percent. Thus even in a high noise environment, and with shtf, a tactile warning to " get your acts together " would be obvious and not dependant on visual or aural. ( above is a super simplified version- do not mean it is a minor tweak )
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: OK
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
^
Well, what more is the airplane supposed to do? It is yelling "Dual input", the PFD has an arrow telling you you arent flying and lastly, we all learn from day 1, ONLY ONE PERSON can fly the airplane. "I have control" and that should be that.
Well, what more is the airplane supposed to do? It is yelling "Dual input", the PFD has an arrow telling you you arent flying and lastly, we all learn from day 1, ONLY ONE PERSON can fly the airplane. "I have control" and that should be that.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: still in bed
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
here some to learn regarding the weather radar,
However there is an interesting article somewhere that talk about how to master the Tilt Antenna function.
As you imagine it is important to have a "picture" of the weather in a vertical resolution and beside the fact that all the radars have a "kind" of gyro stabilization there is a simple formula to tilt your radar beam horizontally to the ground so you can judge your alternatives. the procedure if routinely preformed it takes 20 to 30 second.
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/aviation/...4dec-front.pdf
However there is an interesting article somewhere that talk about how to master the Tilt Antenna function.
As you imagine it is important to have a "picture" of the weather in a vertical resolution and beside the fact that all the radars have a "kind" of gyro stabilization there is a simple formula to tilt your radar beam horizontally to the ground so you can judge your alternatives. the procedure if routinely preformed it takes 20 to 30 second.
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/aviation/...4dec-front.pdf
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cohoes, NY
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Up Gust
@Bloggs --
?? A severe enough updraft will cause pitchup simply from differential vertical wind speeds between wings/nose and tail.
(But excellent points on "forgetting to remember trim" and "HMI is for the H and not the M".)
Also I am assuming at minimum an automation dropout (if not an outright counter-safety automation action) in AirAsia, until FDR data shows otherwise. (Too much similarity to other such instances.)
@fireflybob -- Remember that in this case they were in mid-climb already, presumably via automation, so I am not getting where you say "selected altitude" by itself would result in "lowered attitude"?
But I don't think an updraught, in itself, will cause a pitchup;
(But excellent points on "forgetting to remember trim" and "HMI is for the H and not the M".)
Also I am assuming at minimum an automation dropout (if not an outright counter-safety automation action) in AirAsia, until FDR data shows otherwise. (Too much similarity to other such instances.)
@fireflybob -- Remember that in this case they were in mid-climb already, presumably via automation, so I am not getting where you say "selected altitude" by itself would result in "lowered attitude"?
This is not AF447 thread
Originally Posted by John Farley
Of course I do not know what is taught these days.
You may lead the pilot to the best practice but you can not always make him follow it.
@fireflybob -- Remember that in this case they were in mid-climb already, presumably via automation, so I am not getting where you say "selected altitude" by itself would result in "lowered attitude"?
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: MA, USA
Age: 65
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It has been reported that the failure to detect any pings from the black boxes may be due to the rough weather being experienced today where 2 to 4 waves have been reported. A case of too much background noise in such conditions, to be able to detect the pings. Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding the inadequacies of weather radar in detecting many hazardous conditions there has been a lot of promising recent research using LIDAR.
Meteorologists are very pleased with the ability to better detect convective conditions but this is cutting edge stuff so likely to be many years away from routine use in aviation.
Maybe this will replace our current weather radars in the future. OTOH having a scanning laser on the nose of every airliner may prove to be too hazardous.
Meteorologists are very pleased with the ability to better detect convective conditions but this is cutting edge stuff so likely to be many years away from routine use in aviation.
Maybe this will replace our current weather radars in the future. OTOH having a scanning laser on the nose of every airliner may prove to be too hazardous.
Real issue is that turbulence may be rain wrapped or be sitting just the other side of a curtain of rain waiting for you to fly into it. This is where the human interpretation of the storm structure is needed. Honest research meteorologists will admit that this is not a simple problem every storm is different. This is why the rather less than useful advice is to avoid flying close to Cb. In all areas of the tropics and sub-tropics this would stop flying a large proportion of the time. However, it does lend support to the idea of a 'business trajectory' being used rather than fixed routes based on canned plans.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stall warnings on AF447
Roseland,
In reference to your post #857, you are incorrect when you claimed that the stall warnings on AF447 stopped shortly after the captain re-entered the cockpit.
The stall warning sounded a total of 75 times during the fall of AF447 to the ocean. By my count, it sounded 29 times after the captain's return to the flight deck. Not once was it acknowledged by any of the crew.
Rockhound
In reference to your post #857, you are incorrect when you claimed that the stall warnings on AF447 stopped shortly after the captain re-entered the cockpit.
The stall warning sounded a total of 75 times during the fall of AF447 to the ocean. By my count, it sounded 29 times after the captain's return to the flight deck. Not once was it acknowledged by any of the crew.
Rockhound
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by JoeyBalls:8804780
@ Mixture
well, the safest thing would be to never take off...............................how do you think that will play out?
Also, people keep mentioning the CA was an F-16 pilot, so what? Flying an F-16 is absolutely nothing like flying an Airbus. The only commonality is they both are Yoke-less..............
well, the safest thing would be to never take off...............................how do you think that will play out?
Also, people keep mentioning the CA was an F-16 pilot, so what? Flying an F-16 is absolutely nothing like flying an Airbus. The only commonality is they both are Yoke-less..............