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Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

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Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Old 6th Jan 2015, 16:06
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Seats

Apologies, first attempt sent characters, not image. Granted the image is autocad, but note bends in seat support at
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post8811823
with
AirBus A320 - AutoCAD, SOLIDWORKS, Other - 3D CAD model - GrabCAD
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 16:20
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Leightman

There's no useful info in that so-called autoCAD cross-section. The seats don't look anything like the seat specification issued by Airbus. It's just a toy.
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 16:37
  #1383 (permalink)  
 
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Time

Forget the silly idea of converting the timetable to Zulu time so that departure is on Saturday. Does Indonesian law recognise the western convention of the date change at midnight?
I know that in ancient Siam the day logically began at sunrise (6.00 a.m. for official purposes). I do not know if this still applies in modern Thailand. However my wife's birthday is recorded as Christmas eve despite occurring at 3.00 a.m. on the 25th by western times and this was after Siam became Thailand.
So I wonder does Indonesian (or Oriental/ Muslim) convention (or culture) decree 6.00 a.m. as the date change in which case a 0530 departure is lawfully a Saturday departure.
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 16:47
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To quote Superpilot:


'We need to determine the nature of the spurious warnings quickly and to do that we have a whole plethora of inputs and sensors to give an indication of airspeed. Diagnosis is required and suitable action after that. This is what the Airbus AD seeks to achieve.'


I can definitely see the good in the system you delineate however there is also the fact of diagnosis requiring time.


Just to reference as an example the Quantas A380 incident at Changi in 2010...and the pages and pages of warning notifications that the FO had to read through, unable to triage the indications as each had to be read and processed before the next could be dealt with or even seen - they made it and they were extremely fortunate to but in many situations, time is absolutely not available for this task.


When you have a loss of hydraulics and flight controls the last thing you need is possibly a freaking out ECAM delivering you 75 million messages at once. But unfortunately that's what you get.


I don't know however if the EICAS system provides any more flexibility than this though I'm aware the format is different.
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 16:58
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For LAPP.... you quote...
Really! Was it a kind of barstool conversation perhaps. Because, you know "listening devices" need to be powered on to listen to "encrypted signals".


But do you realise how little power is required in the listening mode?
I have a radio locked clock that runs for a year on an AA battery. If I equipped it with a 35Ah battery it would keep receiving its time signal for maybe 100 years.
Also my Seiko watch lasts a year or more on just a miniature button cell.
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 17:40
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Originally Posted by MrSnuggles
I am sorry but...

PLEASE everybody, Flightradar24 is a nifty little gadget but it is no way useful for investigative purposes.

ManaAdaSystems says approx the same thing as me here: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post8813007

FR24 bases its flightpaths on some signals from the actual plane and some calculations about its supposed position IF the airplane uses the same heading, speed and altitude as lats actual data point.

This is why you can see big deviatons if you zoom in around an airport - planes going straight that suddenly makes huge sidesteps. Fact is, it never did a sidestep, it flew according to its own plan, not FR24's algorithms.

All you can do with FR24 therefore, is to use it as an app that gives you a possible trend when the aircraft is in cruise. These are too many maybes to be taken as evidence if something truly occurs.
Just to point out - I would propose using the ADS-B output from aircraft which has a LOT more information than that retained by third party flight trackers like FR24 and FlightAware etc. whose use is easy by ad hoc fora like this but is not necessarily accurate as it probably collates inputs from several sources. The officially recorded ADS-B information will be available in several ATC facilities and could extremely simply provide a detailed trajectory of the aircraft. Given a detailed trajectory with half second 3D positions what happened to the aircraft would be a lot more apparent.
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 18:34
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Originally Posted by susier
To quote Superpilot: 'We need to determine the nature of the spurious warnings quickly and to do that we have a whole plethora of inputs and sensors to give an indication of airspeed. Diagnosis is required and suitable action after that. This is what the Airbus AD seeks to achieve.' I can definitely see the good in the system you delineate however there is also the fact of diagnosis requiring time. Just to reference as an example the Quantas A380 incident at Changi in 2010...and the pages and pages of warning notifications that the FO had to read through, unable to triage the indications as each had to be read and processed before the next could be dealt with or even seen - they made it and they were extremely fortunate to but in many situations, time is absolutely not available for this task. When you have a loss of hydraulics and flight controls the last thing you need is possibly a freaking out ECAM delivering you 75 million messages at once. But unfortunately that's what you get. I don't know however if the EICAS system provides any more flexibility than this though I'm aware the format is different.
There weren't 75,000,000 messages! Nor does the crew have to work through every ECAM. The aeroplane was actually flying very well - albeit with a buggered engine and a hole in the wing! So much drama from the wannabes😵

And it's QANTAS without a U😂

Strewth......
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 18:37
  #1388 (permalink)  
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Just to point out - I would propose using the ADS-B output from aircraft which has a LOT more information
Just a thought but should that information be retained by the authorities for use in the official accident investigation?
Rather than be released for use by the media and adhoc forums
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 19:47
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lost in saigon

how about being in an updraft and the plane points its nose down to maintain altitude and

bam

airbus says: you are going too fast so I will pull up

anyhoo

and aterpster...of course...we both know the dirty little things under the rug
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 20:07
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Just to point out - I would propose using the ADS-B output from aircraft which has a LOT more information than that retained by third party flight trackers like FR24 and FlightAware etc.
Well,

ADS-B The primary technology that Flightradar24 use to receive flight information is called automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B).
From: How it works - Flightradar24.com - Live flight tracker!

As you say, ATC might have a lot more data recorded from the ADS-B transmissions. On the other hand, FR24 may indeed log more ADS-B data with more modern equipment than a government ATC site. I was told recently that the FAA still uses Intel 486 computers at some sites.

Also, in some areas I would think sites like FR24 might have better coverage through hobbyist networks with a large number of nodes than ATC with smaller networks of professional equipment. Most of the hobbyist receivers log the 1090ES signal.

Just a thought but should that information be retained by the authorities for use in the official accident investigation?
Rather than be released for use by the media and adhoc forums
Not sure how you can keep transmitted ADS-B data out of the public domain.

ADS-B is transmitted in the clear and may be received, and spoofed, by anyone with the proper equipment. I'm afraid ADS-C has similar problems in its current implementation.

See: ADS-B Is Insecure and Easily Spoofed, Say Hackers | : Aviation International News

For the many geniuses and rocket scientists who frequent PPRuNe, here is an excellent technical paper on the subject of ADS-B insecurity:

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1307.3664
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 20:09
  #1391 (permalink)  
 
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Side scan sonar images 2 objects Jan.6ht, 2015

I just found two sidescan sonar images today coming from USS Fort Worth provided with proper coordinates.

detikNews : Ini Penampakan 2 Objek Besar yang Ditemukan USS Fort Worth

At the moment I can only reply to this message on this page. And cannot upload images. Hope someone can do that for me.
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 20:23
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Originally Posted by west lakes
Just a thought but should that information be retained by the authorities for use in the official accident investigation?
Rather than be released for use by the media and adhoc forums
I would think that it comes under the ICAO rules for retention of information for a minimum 4 weeks.

You are right (I hope) that ADS-B data from the aircraft should be used in the investigation. However, the output from the 'authorities' seems to indicate that they have not made use of the data (yet?) or they would not be floundering around making wild suggestions, they would just be quiet as they would know what probably happened already. So to me it looks like the use of detailed ADS-B output has not been considered.

At the same time we are getting all these calls to _add_ more 'tracking' devices and DFDR uploads. To go back to my previous posts: aircraft already have considerable tracking and information sharing capabilities - they are just not being used to full effect.
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 20:27
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Airbubba
As you say, ATC might have a lot more data recorded from the ADS-B transmissions. On the other hand, FR24 may indeed log more ADS-B data with more modern equipment than a government ATC site. I was told recently that the FAA still uses Intel 486 computers at some sites.
You should look at the processors in many FMCs a smart phone often has more computing power.
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 20:38
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Question:

What functions are lost at FD at dual engine flame out (due to icing)?

Also found this:
Airbus A319/320/321 Notes - Training Notes by Eric Parks
"If both Main AC busses lose power and the airspeed is 100 kts. or more the RAT will automatically deploy.
Note: min. RAT speed is 140 kts, RAT will stall out at less than 125 kt.

100 kts. or more (horisontal speed!), consider eventual stall.....
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 20:51
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Air Asia Airlines statement Jan 6, 2015:

AirAsia Indonesia Flight QZ 8501 Update (as of 6th January 2015 8:00 PM (GMT+7)
SURABAYA, 6TH JANUARY 2015 –AirAsia Indonesia wishes to provide an update regarding the latest development on the tenth day of search and rescue operation of QZ 8501 lead by The National Search and Rescue Agency (BASARNAS) Republic of Indonesia.

The SAR operations continued around the focused area where the aircraft is most likely located. More than 40 vessels and 20 helicopters were deployed and focused to find the exact location of the plane’s wreckage as well as the black box.

The weather was cloudy with light rain and waves at 2–3 meters. However, the underwater current is still strong around 4-5 knots and the visibility is still limited for the sea divers to identify more findings from under the sea.

Indonesian National Armed Forces Commander, General Moeldoko visited the military base at Pangkalan Bun this afternoon, to inspect the search and evacuation operation which is still running today.

This evening, BASARNAS also confirmed to recover two more remains from the focused search area. The two remains are still in Pangkalan Bun, waiting to be transported to Surabaya for further identification process.
Meanwhile, the Disaster Victim Identification Police Department Republic of Indonesia (DVI POLRI) today announced that they have identified 3 more remains of QZ 8501 passengers as: Indra Yulianto (male), Hindarto Halim (male), Jou Brian Youvito (male). AirAsia Indonesia officially handed over the remains to the respective families at Bhayangkara Hospital, Surabaya this afternoon.

To date, BASARNAS confirmed to have recovered a total of 39 remains of which 16 remains have been identified by DVI POLRI and 23 remains are still being identified.

AirAsia would like to take this opportunity to urge the public seeking progress on the search and evacuation and identification process of QZ 8501 passengers to refer solely to official information from BASARNAS and DVI POLRI.

Our thoughts and prayers remain with the families and friends of our passengers and colleagues on board QZ 8501.
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 21:20
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Originally Posted by lapp
Really! Was it a kind of barstool conversation perhaps. Because, you know "listening devices" need to be powered on to listen to "encrypted signals".
A listening mode takes a minuscule amount of power compared to transmitting mode.

It's not a totally crazy idea; it may have some legs.
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 21:45
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Originally Posted by Ranger One
A listening mode takes a minuscule amount of power compared to transmitting mode.

It's not a totally crazy idea; it may have some legs.
Listen for radio signals that don't work much under water? Oh wait, long waves almost work. But they can be feeble, so they need amplification and signal processing. Damn, need power again. Keep trying.
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 21:56
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My apologies to all. David Reid is correct in his criticism of the FR24 data. I now calculate a speed for each data point and in doing so, I find that the ADS-B data FR24 was using wasn't in sync with the capture rate. ( At least that's what it looks like was happening.) In any case, the data cannot be analyzed as finely as I was attempting to do.

Here we have:
Time of data capture, coordinates, elapsed time since last capture, distance traveled in feet and calculated speed for that time in kts.

23:10:54 4.091 s 110.344 e
23:10:57 4.083 s 110.335 e 3 sec 4700 940 kts
23:11:00 4.079 s 110.330 e 7 sec 2503 214
23:11:04 4.075 s 110.325 e 6 sec 2493 249
23:11:07 4.070 s 110.318 e 3 sec 2504 500
23:11:09 4.065 s 110.314 e 2 sec 3324 997
23:11:14 4.061 s 110.308 e 5 sec 2318 278
23:11:16 4.056 s 110.303 e 2 sec 2590 777
23:11:18 4.053 s 110.299 e 2 sec 1946 583
23:11:21 4.050 s 110.296 e 3 sec 1620 324
23:11:28 4.041 s 110.284 e 7 sec 5575 477
23:11:31 4.037 s 110.281 e 3 sec 1874 375
23:10:35 4.031 s 110.273 e 4 sec 3910 586
23:11:38 4.026 s 110.267 e 3 sec 3036 607
23:11:42 4.020 s 110.260 e 4 sec 3604 540
23:11:45 4.015 s 110.254 e 3 sec 3056 611
23:11:49 4.010 s 110.248 e 4 sec 3038 455
23:11:51 4.005 s 110.243 e 3 sec 2750 550
23:11:55 4.000 s 110.237 e 4 sec 3050 457
23:11:58 3.996 s 110.232 e 3 sec 2488 497
23:12:01 3.992 s 110.227 e 3 sec 2490 497
23:12:04 3.990 s 110.226 e 3 sec 1245 249

The last two data captures were invalid.
23:12:34 2.990 s 110.226 e
23:12:37 2.990 s 110.226 e

However, what the FR24 data does indicate -

The average speed for the last 70 seconds of ADS-B data shown by FR24 was 480kts. This is of course different from the reportedly slow ground speeds which must have come from a primary radar.

23:10:54 4.091 s 110.344 e
23:12:04 3.990 s 110.226 e 3 sec 1245 9.33nm 70 seconds = 480kts

The above is actual ADS-B data from the plane, so even if it doesn't give us an accurate picture of the specific airspeeds in this segment of the flight, (as I had hoped) it does seem to be more relevant to understanding the loss of QZ8501 than whether or not all the paperwork for the flight was in order.

And yes, there was other ADS-B information contained in the FR-24 data found here:
https://twitter.com/flightradar24/st...840256/photo/1
And I suspect that there is even more at the FR24 site, although I don't know how helpful it will be,
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 22:04
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lapp

Perhaps those Listening Devices are just that, listening for acoustic signals. (Sub and surface vessels, sealife and other natural noises)

Last edited by Sir Richard; 7th Jan 2015 at 07:42.
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Old 6th Jan 2015, 22:54
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Originally Posted by A0283
I just found two sidescan sonar images today coming from USS Fort Worth provided with proper coordinates.

detikNews : Ini Penampakan 2 Objek Besar yang Ditemukan USS Fort Worth

At the moment I can only reply to this message on this page. And cannot upload images. Hope someone can do that for me.
Looking at the first one and the way it tapers from "the pointed end", possibly a small boat?
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