Bird strike out of Guernsey continues on one Engine to Birmingham
The whole bloody wing will be getting wobbled with the amount of out of balance mass in the hub
But in the video the prop is already feathered and barely windmilling at all (about 2 rpm).
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You will have bluff body dynamics vortex shedding coming from the damaged face in the air flow.
Tacoma Narrows Bridge Collapse "Gallopin' Gertie" - YouTube
Its what caused this bridge to fail.
The vortexes shed on one side then the other and set up a resonance so I wouldn't be surprised if there was vibration still even after the engine was shut down.
Tacoma Narrows Bridge Collapse "Gallopin' Gertie" - YouTube
Its what caused this bridge to fail.
The vortexes shed on one side then the other and set up a resonance so I wouldn't be surprised if there was vibration still even after the engine was shut down.
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Finding it quite interesting how black and white some people think things are.
One of the odd things that happens to pilots is that they begin to think differently. The answer to a simple question "how far away is X?" will often be answered in terms of time, "about half an hour". This is very relevant in this scenario.
For my money, if it's going to take 15 minutes to get on the ground then any field within approximately 15 minutes flying time is perfectly valid and I'd rather have extra minutes than too few as too few will increase the workload either by pressure or manoeuvring.
The difference will be whether the checklist says 'land at nearest suitable airport' or 'land IMMEDIATELY at nearest suitable airport'(my capitals).
In almost any case, except when there is a dire emergency, the deciding factor may well be cabin preparation.
And one can always point to the paragraph 'captain's discretion to deviate from...'.
One of the odd things that happens to pilots is that they begin to think differently. The answer to a simple question "how far away is X?" will often be answered in terms of time, "about half an hour". This is very relevant in this scenario.
For my money, if it's going to take 15 minutes to get on the ground then any field within approximately 15 minutes flying time is perfectly valid and I'd rather have extra minutes than too few as too few will increase the workload either by pressure or manoeuvring.
The difference will be whether the checklist says 'land at nearest suitable airport' or 'land IMMEDIATELY at nearest suitable airport'(my capitals).
In almost any case, except when there is a dire emergency, the deciding factor may well be cabin preparation.
And one can always point to the paragraph 'captain's discretion to deviate from...'.
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And I also think some posters on here have short memories. The weather on Saturday in the south was just awful so the crew elected to go to Birmingham where the wind was straight down the runway. GCI - BHX is hardly transatlantic for crying out loud. GCI - EXT or SOU is about 25-30 minutes airborne on a good day, with checklists to do etc it'll be about 40-45 minutes. In that time you've flown to BHX anyway.
It's nice to see the dispatcher from GCI on board is so knowledgeable about Q400 operations (not)
It's nice to see the dispatcher from GCI on board is so knowledgeable about Q400 operations (not)
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Spandy missing the point too. Wet, windy and the last bit, in particular, no fire cover and closed anyway does not in any sense make it suitable. Nearest is nearest is nearest and has to be suitable. Of course. If it isn't you go somewhere else. Geees, the very claptrap I think Slowjet was seeking to avoid.
Here's the thing Skygods : almost overhead Larnaca on the way home to a Birthday Bash in the ME, engine quits. Drills complete, into the hold (very high level and descending, company calls on HF and says that there is a spare engine in Damascus and there is an Engineers strike at LCA. Also, massive 80kts up yer ass on the way to Damascus. Kindly divert to Damascus. What would you Skygods do ? Careful, this really happened and was incorporated into our Command Selection Interviews. responses were interesting and in some cases, the straw that broke the camel's back resulting in a bit more RHS time being recommended.
Here's the thing Skygods : almost overhead Larnaca on the way home to a Birthday Bash in the ME, engine quits. Drills complete, into the hold (very high level and descending, company calls on HF and says that there is a spare engine in Damascus and there is an Engineers strike at LCA. Also, massive 80kts up yer ass on the way to Damascus. Kindly divert to Damascus. What would you Skygods do ? Careful, this really happened and was incorporated into our Command Selection Interviews. responses were interesting and in some cases, the straw that broke the camel's back resulting in a bit more RHS time being recommended.
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Has nobody had a look at FR24 yet?
Well 20 mins put the aircraft over the Needles at 17k doing about 280 kts (give or take a bit). Slight speed reduction about 20 miles South it would seem but it fair nipped along to BHX after that.
Well 20 mins put the aircraft over the Needles at 17k doing about 280 kts (give or take a bit). Slight speed reduction about 20 miles South it would seem but it fair nipped along to BHX after that.
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The last four types I've flown said that you should "Land at the nearest suitable airport" following an engine out. And in my book that equals time, not distance. My company trusts me to make that decision as to where that will be together with my colleague. This guy was also trusted by his company to do the same but this time he actually had to do it for real. What is important is that he took his time and didn't stuff it up. Hats off to him plus plenty of tea and medals. Saving a couple of minutes or going somewhere possibly geographically closer where A. You are not used flying, b. Where you might not have handling arrangements and engineering and c. Where the weather might not be as good might not be the best option (or most suitable). So if flying to where you were going in the first place is also reasonable, then why not?
PS. I think we are still allowed to use common sense.
PS. I think we are still allowed to use common sense.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
PS. I think we are still allowed to use common sense.
I know we are not referring to ETOPS, but with 330 minutes permitted on some, are we not making a bit of an issue about what constitutes safe practice in this particular case. Save the Monday morning quarterbacking for the footy.
Originally Posted by Piltdown Man
b. Where you might not have handling arrangements and engineering
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Bird strike out of Guernsey continues on one Engine to Birmingham
I think we are missing the point here.
The aircraft had a problem.
The crew elected to shut down the engine to limit any potential further damage.
The aircraft landed safely and without further incident.
What exactly do you guys want as a 'better' outcome?
The aircraft had a problem.
The crew elected to shut down the engine to limit any potential further damage.
The aircraft landed safely and without further incident.
What exactly do you guys want as a 'better' outcome?
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totti highflyer, you're right, it really is as simple as that.
Just for clarity, the Q400 checklist will lead you into a decision making process in the fact that if it is serious enough it will instruct you to "land immediately at the nearest suitable airfield" or "land at the nearest suitable airfield". Notice the slight difference.
This incident happened around 10:50z, the weather in the South and West of England at the time was not pleasant.
Guernsey - R09/27
EGJB 081050Z 18021G33KT 9999 -RA SCT012 BKN022 13/12 Q1000
EGJB 081120Z 19023KT 9999 VCSH SCT013 BKN025 14/12 Q1000
Jersey - R08/26
EGJJ 081050Z 18023KT 9999 FEW008 SCT035 13/11 Q1002 TEMPO RA BKN015
EGJJ 081120Z 18016KT 9999 FEW008 SCT012 BKN035 13/11 Q1001 TEMPO RA BKN015
Bournemouth - R08/26
EGHH 081050Z 19021G32KT 9999 SCT017 BKN027 13/12 Q0999 RERA
EGHH 081120Z 18021G32KT 9999 SCT018 BKN030 14/12 Q0998
Southampton - R02/20
EGHI 081050Z 19013G32KT 150V230 9999 BKN020 13/09 Q1000
EGHI 081120Z 19012G28KT 140V230 9999 BKN022 13/09 Q0999
Newquay - R12/30
EGHQ 081050Z 24022G32KT 9999 SCT020 11/08 Q0996
EGHQ 081120Z 24021KT 9999 SCT022 11/07 Q0996
Exeter - R08/26
EGTE 081050Z 20014KT 9999 FEW010 SCT025 12/10 Q0996
EGTE 081120Z 19012KT 9999 SCT028 12/10 Q0996
Bristol - R09/27
EGGD 081050Z 18016KT 6000 RA FEW005 SCT006 BKN009 11/10 Q0995
EGGD 081120Z 17021G32KT 9000 RA FEW005 SCT006 BKN009 11/10 Q0995
Cardiff - R12/30
EGFF 081050Z AUTO 19013KT 9999 FEW023/// //////TCU 12/10 Q0995 RERA
EGFF 081120Z AUTO 19009KT 9999 SCT021/// //////TCU 12/10 Q0995
And finally at destination
Birmingham - R15/33
EGBB 081050Z AUTO 14012KT 6000 -RA SCT007/// BKN010/// OVC015/// 09/09 Q0996 RERA
EGBB 081120Z 14013KT 4000 RA FEW006 BKN012 BKN020 10/09 Q0996
We're not talking medium to long haul operations here as Landflap alludes to, we're talking short haul, regional flying (no sh** Sherlock) where a suitable airfield "should" generally be within 15 minutes flying time regardless of where you are, but ask yourself this, was this situation an engine failure? Of course not. Was it a precautionary shutdown? Of course it was. Was the engine available should they needed it in a dire situation? Of course it was. They elected to go to BHX based on the information presented to them, was this a bad decision? I think not, but if you think it was then I'd love to hear why.
Just for clarity, the Q400 checklist will lead you into a decision making process in the fact that if it is serious enough it will instruct you to "land immediately at the nearest suitable airfield" or "land at the nearest suitable airfield". Notice the slight difference.
This incident happened around 10:50z, the weather in the South and West of England at the time was not pleasant.
Guernsey - R09/27
EGJB 081050Z 18021G33KT 9999 -RA SCT012 BKN022 13/12 Q1000
EGJB 081120Z 19023KT 9999 VCSH SCT013 BKN025 14/12 Q1000
Jersey - R08/26
EGJJ 081050Z 18023KT 9999 FEW008 SCT035 13/11 Q1002 TEMPO RA BKN015
EGJJ 081120Z 18016KT 9999 FEW008 SCT012 BKN035 13/11 Q1001 TEMPO RA BKN015
Bournemouth - R08/26
EGHH 081050Z 19021G32KT 9999 SCT017 BKN027 13/12 Q0999 RERA
EGHH 081120Z 18021G32KT 9999 SCT018 BKN030 14/12 Q0998
Southampton - R02/20
EGHI 081050Z 19013G32KT 150V230 9999 BKN020 13/09 Q1000
EGHI 081120Z 19012G28KT 140V230 9999 BKN022 13/09 Q0999
Newquay - R12/30
EGHQ 081050Z 24022G32KT 9999 SCT020 11/08 Q0996
EGHQ 081120Z 24021KT 9999 SCT022 11/07 Q0996
Exeter - R08/26
EGTE 081050Z 20014KT 9999 FEW010 SCT025 12/10 Q0996
EGTE 081120Z 19012KT 9999 SCT028 12/10 Q0996
Bristol - R09/27
EGGD 081050Z 18016KT 6000 RA FEW005 SCT006 BKN009 11/10 Q0995
EGGD 081120Z 17021G32KT 9000 RA FEW005 SCT006 BKN009 11/10 Q0995
Cardiff - R12/30
EGFF 081050Z AUTO 19013KT 9999 FEW023/// //////TCU 12/10 Q0995 RERA
EGFF 081120Z AUTO 19009KT 9999 SCT021/// //////TCU 12/10 Q0995
And finally at destination
Birmingham - R15/33
EGBB 081050Z AUTO 14012KT 6000 -RA SCT007/// BKN010/// OVC015/// 09/09 Q0996 RERA
EGBB 081120Z 14013KT 4000 RA FEW006 BKN012 BKN020 10/09 Q0996
We're not talking medium to long haul operations here as Landflap alludes to, we're talking short haul, regional flying (no sh** Sherlock) where a suitable airfield "should" generally be within 15 minutes flying time regardless of where you are, but ask yourself this, was this situation an engine failure? Of course not. Was it a precautionary shutdown? Of course it was. Was the engine available should they needed it in a dire situation? Of course it was. They elected to go to BHX based on the information presented to them, was this a bad decision? I think not, but if you think it was then I'd love to hear why.
the Q400 checklist will lead you into a decision making process in the fact that if it is serious enough it will instruct you to "land immediately at the nearest suitable airfield" or "land at the nearest suitable airfield". Notice the slight difference.
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Capt Bloggs you've answered your own question because you clearly know what the definition of "suitable airfield" is with regard to airline operations. Unless your question was completely rhetorical of course?
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SLFguy, I've no idea. I've PM'ed the top mods several times about it, including this morning infact, but as yet I've not had one response. Ce la vie.
An awful lot of "what-ifs" here in contrast to "what-did" happen.
What's missing in the analytical discussions is the inherent ability of the crew coupled with the tolerance of the machine to result in a safe outcome.
Any talk about imbalances either due to the offset mass of the bird or even rubbery vortex shedding need balance against the inherent dampening in the wing and the ability of the crew to adjust airspeed eve a little bit.
What's missing in the analytical discussions is the inherent ability of the crew coupled with the tolerance of the machine to result in a safe outcome.
Any talk about imbalances either due to the offset mass of the bird or even rubbery vortex shedding need balance against the inherent dampening in the wing and the ability of the crew to adjust airspeed eve a little bit.