Drones threatening commercial a/c?
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The cure
To stop the hysteria ALL flying drones over 500g (a crow's weight) should have a mandatory baro sensor which prevents them to climb more than 400ft over start position . It's cheap ,5$ or so at the source , light (a couple of grams ) and has about 3-6 feet acuracy .I know what i'm saying it can be done cheaply .I would even mount them in triplicate in larger drones to guard against failure .DJI should take notice.
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To stop the hysteria ALL flying drones over 500g (a crow's weight) should have a mandatory baro sensor which prevents them to climb more than 400ft over start position . It's cheap ,5$ or so at the source , light (a couple of grams ) and has about 3-6 feet acuracy .I know what i'm saying it can be done cheaply .I would even mount them in triplicate in larger drones to guard against failure .DJI should take notice.
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It's a chip thinghie of some 2/2 mm . Will need a drop of glue to disable it but then 2 things will happen .One: the inertial system will be contradicted by the baro (accels and thr tells it that is going up , baro that is staying ) . Should generate autoland sequence if the divergence is too high.Second , the Baro will remain probably permanently disabled . Can be defeated by using a hacked firmware but the ideea was to eliminate the stupid casuals , the smart nuts will run one of these anyway :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBWAcNJf5pM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBWAcNJf5pM
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FAA Works With CNN, BNSF to Study Drone Flights
The FAA said the initiative is intended to figure out how to safely allow the sophisticated operations that the commercial drone industry has been clamoring for and that are necessary to enable applications such as package delivery.
Under the project, Time Warner Inc. unit CNN will use drones to film in urban areas, BNSF will use them to fly hundreds of miles to inspect its railroads, and drone-maker PrecisionHawk Inc. will fly them beyond sight of the operator to collect data on crops.
Under the project, Time Warner Inc. unit CNN will use drones to film in urban areas, BNSF will use them to fly hundreds of miles to inspect its railroads, and drone-maker PrecisionHawk Inc. will fly them beyond sight of the operator to collect data on crops.
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Pilots say poll shows public want strict curbs on flying drones in cities
A survey of more than 2,000 adults by the British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa) also showed that half think there should be prison sentences for those flying drones in a way that endangers an aircraft.
It's interesting to see how in Europe, the attitude about drones seems to be very defensive, very restrictive. In the US, on the other hand, it appears to be the start of a gold rush of drone development of all kinds, commercial and consumer.
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I have a hard time with drones. A non complient drone hit one of my former company's aircraft and killed four crewmembers a couple of years back. The drone climbed through it's assigned alltitude into RVSM airspace. They are more expensive to operate than a manned aircraft and once they stop communicating with their owners, there is no stopping them. Every person on this forum that has flown for more than a day has lost communications with ATC before. When this happens with a drone, the lack of a brain causes real concern for safety because after loss of lock/comms, a drone climbs uncommanded to the MSA for their entire route of flight. Also, as worthless as ALPA is, I would think they would be fighting tooth and nail to keep drones out of the picture. You can't get 2% of someone's income if they are an inanimate object. You would think they would be fighting against drones as a matter of safety, but there isn't a single pilot union that gives a damn about safety... Once pilots are replaced by ground operators, the unions are going away...
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CRayner
Fatalities from model aircraft
Regrettably there have been numerous injuries and some deaths from operation of model aircraft. Admittedly I know of none from a collision between a model and a commercial passenger operation, but there certainly was a death of a hang glider pilot in southern England 20 or 30 years ago. We should not be complacent about this.
FYI almost all injuries are self inflicted by the model pilots. Ask me how I know.
The fatality you are referring to came about on a slope shared by hang gliders and model aircraft. By mutual agreement different ends of the slope were used and there was no conflict. Regrettably the hang glider pilot did not abide by this agreement and encroached on the model flying area. A model on approach to the landing spot collided with the hang glider, the metal wing joiner in the model severing a flying wire on the hang glider. The wing collapsed and the hang glider pilot fell to his death. The subsequent enquiry cleared the model aircraft pilot of any blame.
Fatalities from model aircraft
Regrettably there have been numerous injuries and some deaths from operation of model aircraft. Admittedly I know of none from a collision between a model and a commercial passenger operation, but there certainly was a death of a hang glider pilot in southern England 20 or 30 years ago. We should not be complacent about this.
FYI almost all injuries are self inflicted by the model pilots. Ask me how I know.
The fatality you are referring to came about on a slope shared by hang gliders and model aircraft. By mutual agreement different ends of the slope were used and there was no conflict. Regrettably the hang glider pilot did not abide by this agreement and encroached on the model flying area. A model on approach to the landing spot collided with the hang glider, the metal wing joiner in the model severing a flying wire on the hang glider. The wing collapsed and the hang glider pilot fell to his death. The subsequent enquiry cleared the model aircraft pilot of any blame.
Did you in fact invent the story?
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Paper Drone
Imagine flying through a swarm of these - dropped from high altitude in thousands.
'Cicadas': US military's new swarm of mini-drones
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As one of the new breed of 'drone' operators, I have a vested interest in this thread. I would like to deal with some of the issues raised and respond with opinions based on operating in the UK.
Conflict with any other air user and especially commercial aircraft should never happen. Of course it does, and as sub 7kg drones are currently permitted to operate in controlled airspace without clearance, will continue to happen. Recent CAA rules, now allow sub 3.5 kg drones to operate at up to 1000 ft AGL flying FPV. In other words, the pilot is sitting on the ground with goggles on, flying with just the view ahead.
The threat then, is from untrained leisure flyers with little knowledge of the hazards and rules. Recent CAA action has been to ask anyone reporting an airprox to notify Police asap. Prosecutions are taking place and awareness of 'rogue' operators to the possibility of prosecution is growing.
Commercial operators such as ourselves must undergo training and flight assessment which whilst not as rigorous as a PPL, is similar in content. We must also produce an Operations Manual, which of course must be adhered to at all times.
We do operate occasionally in controlled airspace, but always with permission and contact with the relevant ATC. In any case, we are normally restricted to below 400ft AGL. Should any of the control systems fail, the drone must have a return to home capability. If the worse should happen, a fly away, we always have the contact details of the appropriate ATC.
Most of the work we carry out could not be undertaken by full sized aircraft. Some of it could, but a drone is often safer in these circumstances.
A previous post alluded to the fact that most injuries and fatalities associated with model flying are suffered by the participants. This is true though there has been at least one fatality to a third party. Traditionally, model flying has taken place at club sites. This has kept the public and other air users safe from the activity. There is a growing trend of 'park flyers', who are generally free of rules, instruction and insurance. This cannot be a good thing for anyone.
The future of drones depends on the development of a creditable sense and avoid system. This is not far away. Then it really will be a fight for space!
Conflict with any other air user and especially commercial aircraft should never happen. Of course it does, and as sub 7kg drones are currently permitted to operate in controlled airspace without clearance, will continue to happen. Recent CAA rules, now allow sub 3.5 kg drones to operate at up to 1000 ft AGL flying FPV. In other words, the pilot is sitting on the ground with goggles on, flying with just the view ahead.
The threat then, is from untrained leisure flyers with little knowledge of the hazards and rules. Recent CAA action has been to ask anyone reporting an airprox to notify Police asap. Prosecutions are taking place and awareness of 'rogue' operators to the possibility of prosecution is growing.
Commercial operators such as ourselves must undergo training and flight assessment which whilst not as rigorous as a PPL, is similar in content. We must also produce an Operations Manual, which of course must be adhered to at all times.
We do operate occasionally in controlled airspace, but always with permission and contact with the relevant ATC. In any case, we are normally restricted to below 400ft AGL. Should any of the control systems fail, the drone must have a return to home capability. If the worse should happen, a fly away, we always have the contact details of the appropriate ATC.
Most of the work we carry out could not be undertaken by full sized aircraft. Some of it could, but a drone is often safer in these circumstances.
A previous post alluded to the fact that most injuries and fatalities associated with model flying are suffered by the participants. This is true though there has been at least one fatality to a third party. Traditionally, model flying has taken place at club sites. This has kept the public and other air users safe from the activity. There is a growing trend of 'park flyers', who are generally free of rules, instruction and insurance. This cannot be a good thing for anyone.
The future of drones depends on the development of a creditable sense and avoid system. This is not far away. Then it really will be a fight for space!
At 1000ft AGL with only a remote camera view ahead and busy framing your shot how do maintain an effective scan for other aircraft? You only appear to see untrained leisure flyers as a threat to aviation.
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That was my point. You cannot. The CAA exception requires an observer but a 3.5kg drone at 1000ft!
Yes, I do think that nearly all these issues are caused by hobbyists. Professional operators work to strict rules and to an operation manual.
Yes, I do think that nearly all these issues are caused by hobbyists. Professional operators work to strict rules and to an operation manual.
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Well , the manufacturers of consumer "drones" seem to be heading to the right direction .
Parrot Bebop Drone. Lightweight yet robust quadricopter - 14 megapixel Full HD 1080p Fisheye Camera - Skycontroller - 3-axes image stabilization
450 grams is a lot safer than the 1.2 kg's of the phantom and the video results are same if not better .
Another thing to keep in mind - aircrafts are making themselves heard from kilometers via sound. Everybody sane flying FPV drops to the deck if he hears an aircraft - any type of aircraft . That's why the spotters are pretty much redundant .
Parrot Bebop Drone. Lightweight yet robust quadricopter - 14 megapixel Full HD 1080p Fisheye Camera - Skycontroller - 3-axes image stabilization
450 grams is a lot safer than the 1.2 kg's of the phantom and the video results are same if not better .
Another thing to keep in mind - aircrafts are making themselves heard from kilometers via sound. Everybody sane flying FPV drops to the deck if he hears an aircraft - any type of aircraft . That's why the spotters are pretty much redundant .
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'Spotters are pretty much redundant'.
No, they are essential. It is extremely beneficial to have two people doing pre flight checks, fast jets are not always located by sound, there may be more than one aircraft, plenty of other air users make little sound, the drone pilot may be concentrating on a monitor, people may encroach on the landing area, and the sound of the drone itself may mask other sounds.
If flying in a controlled environment such as a model airfield, it may be acceptable to fly solo, but in my opinion flying solo in any area accessed by the public is not safe.
No, they are essential. It is extremely beneficial to have two people doing pre flight checks, fast jets are not always located by sound, there may be more than one aircraft, plenty of other air users make little sound, the drone pilot may be concentrating on a monitor, people may encroach on the landing area, and the sound of the drone itself may mask other sounds.
If flying in a controlled environment such as a model airfield, it may be acceptable to fly solo, but in my opinion flying solo in any area accessed by the public is not safe.
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First , i'm talking about the "standard nut's " drone , everybody is scared about . The others are regulated , registrated , a police officer is looking over the shoulder of the operator every flight - no problem .
" It is extremely beneficial to have two people doing pre flight checks"
Meh - 2 man preflight on a Phantom ? Or parrot ? Or a hubsan X4 ?
" fast jets are not always located by sound"
Fast jets are looking for trouble at 1000 feet , before getting hit by a drone they will hit 20 crows , 100 sparrows , 30 pidgeons and a stork .
" there may be more than one aircraft"
One is enought to get me to put down the thing till he is gone .
" plenty of other air users make little sound"
Ninja paraglider on a empty country field would surprise the hell out of me too . Ok , spotters are good (mandatory ) near such agrement fields .
" the drone pilot may be concentrating on a monitor"
That does not make me deaf
" people may encroach on the landing area, and the sound of the drone itself may mask other sounds."
Agree , near noisy places spotters are good .But the drone itself at 50 meters is barely audible , at 100m is already silent .
If flying in a controlled environment such as a model airfield, it may be acceptable to fly solo, but in my opinion flying solo in any area accessed by the public is not safe.
Agree - flying over people with anything over 500g is potentially dangerous .That include full scale things too . But at least the drones can avoid this situation -so i agree - no flying near people
" It is extremely beneficial to have two people doing pre flight checks"
Meh - 2 man preflight on a Phantom ? Or parrot ? Or a hubsan X4 ?
" fast jets are not always located by sound"
Fast jets are looking for trouble at 1000 feet , before getting hit by a drone they will hit 20 crows , 100 sparrows , 30 pidgeons and a stork .
" there may be more than one aircraft"
One is enought to get me to put down the thing till he is gone .
" plenty of other air users make little sound"
Ninja paraglider on a empty country field would surprise the hell out of me too . Ok , spotters are good (mandatory ) near such agrement fields .
" the drone pilot may be concentrating on a monitor"
That does not make me deaf
" people may encroach on the landing area, and the sound of the drone itself may mask other sounds."
Agree , near noisy places spotters are good .But the drone itself at 50 meters is barely audible , at 100m is already silent .
If flying in a controlled environment such as a model airfield, it may be acceptable to fly solo, but in my opinion flying solo in any area accessed by the public is not safe.
Agree - flying over people with anything over 500g is potentially dangerous .That include full scale things too . But at least the drones can avoid this situation -so i agree - no flying near people
