Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Drones threatening commercial a/c?

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Drones threatening commercial a/c?

Old 6th Jan 2019, 21:52
  #1141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: 50+ north
Posts: 749
Hopefully someone has submitted a Safety Case to the CAA and secured acceptance for them to sanction its use at each EASA certified aerodrome?
TCAS FAN is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2019, 08:18
  #1142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Devon
Age: 61
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by alexgreyhead View Post
So, has anybody given an indication of how these systems work? Their level of reliability in doing so? And are they effective against drones which are operating on a pre-programmed GPS-based route?

To the latter point, the limited discussion from other internet commentators* is that it's neither likely nor wise to try and interfere with GPS signals to jam drones in the vicinity of airports for the entirely reasonable reason that there would be unintended consequences for legitimate traffic.

* Naturally I have no idea how qualified they are to comment...

I'm concerned that the public proclamations of having drone defenses at airports is at least partly using the same psychology that TV license detector vans employ - i.e. a significant amount of bluff and bluster...

/Alex
From my perspective - GNSS Security Technologist these days, ex aircraft dispatcher once upon a time, you raise some good points. I worry about the idea of pointing a GPS jammer towards a moving drone with no real idea of how jamming GPS is likely to affect the drone (if at all), no idea of whether GPS jamming will affect others nearby, (directing RF isn't as easy as pointing a [email protected] beam, the cone of RF energy is likely to be much larger), or how those nearby users are using GPS - any other safety critical systems being used for precise time or positioning applications?
In a webinar on GPS jamming I participated in 3 years ago, I shared the platform with a US Sheriff who used drones - we were asked about deploying GPS jammers to incapacitate drones - the Sheriff said " why would I tackle one risk by adding several others?" - he meant the collateral caused by interfering with GPS signals and agreed with me that it was a plain bad idea. Of course the other idea that goes around is the idea of spoofing GPS signals - this is what some people think happened to the US drone brought down in Iran - and the University of Texas have also demonstrated how to "take over" a GPS equipped drone using spoofing. But you really need the drone to be hovering in a stationary position for this to work, again, you are going to affect other nearby systems (probably) and there is absolutely no guarantee that the drone will be affected at all.

For me personally, the idea of someone using a powerful GNSS jammer or spoofer gun, moving it around erratically to try and bring down a moving drone in the vicinity of other legitimate systems that depend critically on GPS position or timing data just doesn't sound like a sensible idea unless the potential consequences are known - I spend a lot of my time helping people test systems and devices in order to make them more robust against real-world jamming and spoofing events - we really don't want to be deploying jammers or spoofers deliberately without a full risk assessment being carried out (perhaps this could be part of obtaining an exemption to use one of these devices near an airport?)
Using Geo-fencing is also often talked about as being a potential solution, this means that whilst GPS is being used by a drone, it is prohibited in flying in restricted areas. Another nice idea except for - what are the defined restricted areas, can they be updated - and there are also devices for some of the drones with these geo-fenced systems that can be programmed to apply a set of co-ordinate offsets - this is very easy to do - and the devices are cleverly marketed as being for users who need to film or carry out ostensible activities in a geo-fenced area...

I can't post a link yet but for those of you interested in a good assessment of drone defences there was an excellent presentation at DEFCON 25 which is well worth watching - if you google "DEFCON 25 game of drones" you'll find it. If anyone finds it useful, please feel free to add the link
ex-Dispatcher is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2019, 08:41
  #1143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Across the ditch
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by alexgreyhead View Post
So, has anybody given an indication of how these systems work? Their level of reliability in doing so? And are they effective against drones which are operating on a pre-programmed GPS-based route?
1) radar locates the drone within a 6 mile radius
2) optical rangefinder tracks it
3) high power [email protected] beam melts and disables it

here it is in a test:



The Army didn't buy the [email protected] beam option though, their model just sends a barrage of radio signals to jam the drone which I'm unsure how effective it would be if it's operating on pre-programmed flightpath.
skydler is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2019, 18:33
  #1144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newcastle
Age: 49
Posts: 556
The Army didn't buy the [email protected] beam option though, their model just sends a barrage of radio signals to jam the drone which I'm unsure how effective it would be if it's operating on pre-programmed flightpath.

Any [email protected] floating around an airport could be dangerous.
MATELO is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2019, 19:48
  #1145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 59
Brilliant! High power [email protected] beams near aircraft! What could possibly go wrong?!
MichaelKPIT is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 11:39
  #1146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Southampton
Posts: 91
I would have thought it more likely they purchased the "detection & tracking" part, but not the active counter measures.
However, it has to be "big upped" for the tabloids.
Tech Guy is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 12:05
  #1147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,284
Also effective against sparrow hawks
Ian W is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:51
  #1148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Hopefully, with an aircraft strapped to my backside...
Posts: 33
Question BBC News: Heathrow flights suspended 8th Jan at 17:48 due drone sighting

BBC breaking news reporting at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46803713

(Apologies if this should be in the existing drone thread or isn't news as such.)
alexgreyhead is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:52
  #1149 (permalink)  
Fit like min?
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ...
Posts: 2,036
Well LHR might get the chance to use the technology, flights suspended due to 'drone sighting'.
Richard Taylor is online now  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:54
  #1150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: USS Enterprise
Posts: 32
All departures have been halted

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46803713

seriously.... wtf....
BONES_ is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:55
  #1151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Hopefully, with an aircraft strapped to my backside...
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by BONES_ View Post
Ta muchly Original post updated accordingly.
alexgreyhead is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:58
  #1152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Out of a bag
Posts: 478
But arrivals continue...?
Flying Wild is online now  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 16:59
  #1153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 3,941
Well, anyone who wants some quiet time living on the departure or arrival path now has a very easy way to do that. Simply home build your own multicopter/flying wing and program a flightpath close to the airport. Not traceable since not actually radio controlled, and GPS is not necessary either, there is always GLONASS and Galileo, not to mention Baidu. Or simply terrain recognition, a childs play with todays system, a simply raspy can do that.
Denti is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 17:01
  #1154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Out of a bag
Posts: 478
Originally Posted by TangoAlphad View Post
I was wondering this. Just a BBC muck up or is there still arrivals?
Still plenty on approach at 1800.
Flying Wild is online now  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 17:05
  #1155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 10,599
Originally Posted by Flying Wild View Post
Still plenty on approach at 1800.
But few, if any, departures since 17:15 (50 minutes ago)
DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 17:08
  #1156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,425
Which may suggest the drone was sighted west of the airport!
Hotel Tango is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 17:10
  #1157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: inv
Posts: 271
If all Dep stopped then how long till they run out of stands??
scr1 is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 17:12
  #1158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Europe
Posts: 13
Aegean to Athens just departed - 18:10
theexpandingman is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 17:15
  #1159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 112
FR appears to show departures resumed off 28R
doublesix is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2019, 17:15
  #1160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: USS Enterprise
Posts: 32
Looks like departures have been resumed
BONES_ is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.