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Drones threatening commercial a/c?

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Drones threatening commercial a/c?

Old 2nd Jul 2017, 21:45
  #741 (permalink)  
 
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I'm amazed that someone in telecomms at the airport hasn't thought of transmitting jamming signals on the drone frequencies within, say, 5nm of the airfield.
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Old 2nd Jul 2017, 22:13
  #742 (permalink)  
 
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The problem with that particular strategy is that jamming the frequencies on which the drones operate (2.4GHz and 5.8Ghz) would be disruptive on many other systems within the airfield.
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Old 2nd Jul 2017, 22:16
  #743 (permalink)  
 
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ATC Protocols

I trust Approach and Tower have a non knee-jerk response procedure following pilot reports of drones around Gatwick?
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Old 2nd Jul 2017, 22:36
  #744 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR View Post
I'm amazed that someone in telecomms at the airport hasn't thought of transmitting jamming signals on the drone frequencies within, say, 5nm of the airfield.
That would involve jamming all sorts of other devices in the area, because modern RC systems use spread spectrum (typically at 2.4 GHz, at lower frequencies for longer ranges up to 100 km). What is needed is an inexpensive transponder (e.g. uAvionix Ping200S ADS-B/Mode S Transponder) which all aircraft and secondary radars within some decent distance can pick up, just as AIS does for surface vessels. Of course, that doesn't in any way justify flying drones near airports, but this sort of technology should resolve the problems of flying remotely piloted aircraft in all appropriate airspace. The technology for UAVs is remarkably powerful and inexpensive, giving small electric craft an operational radius of about 100km, with full video ("first person view") and flight instrument data seen by the pilot.
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Old 2nd Jul 2017, 22:53
  #745 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by czarnajama View Post
That would involve jamming all sorts of other devices in the area, because modern RC systems use spread spectrum (typically at 2.4 GHz, at lower frequencies for longer ranges up to 100 km). What is needed is an inexpensive transponder (e.g. uAvionix Ping200S ADS-B/Mode S Transponder) which all aircraft and secondary radars within some decent distance can pick up, just as AIS does for surface vessels. Of course, that doesn't in any way justify flying drones near airports, but this sort of technology should resolve the problems of flying remotely piloted aircraft in all appropriate airspace. The technology for UAVs is remarkably powerful and inexpensive, giving small electric craft an operational radius of about 100km, with full video ("first person view") and flight instrument data seen by the pilot.

Really, 100Km & inexpensive?
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Old 2nd Jul 2017, 23:12
  #746 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airpolice View Post
Really, 100Km & inexpensive?
Well, no, not really.

Some of the higher end units offer range "up to 2 miles" between the controller and the aircraft, but, remember, that's a radius.

So you can't be 2 miles up and 2 miles away.

If it was, in fact, a drone, we're probably looking at something modified by a knowledgeable individual for greater range.

(As in optimize the antennae in both the controller and the craft, find all the wobbly grounds in the craft and correct them, and perhaps add a ground plane to the controller. The last part would be inconvenient to drag around.)

But why the f*ck someone that smart would fly into commercial airspace is beyond me.

Unless...
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 02:36
  #747 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airpolice View Post
Really, 100Km & inexpensive?
Here is a UAV (not a multicopter) developed and sold for both commercial users and amateur builders. Flown to 13,000 feet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpuhDhk8WrY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19RDaBTwC6I

Here is an off-the-shelf model capable of 100 km radius: details presented by a world expert (in China) on "drones" of all kinds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRAH-E0bczA

And two actual 100 km out and back flights of similar craft (lots of details):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqMm_gzuRYI&t=33s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfzBiZUPSo0

These are all examples of people who are essentially hobbyists integrating off-the-shelf equipment. The technology is well established and anybody can build and fly an FPV UAV with IFR gear. It can even be completely automated with on-board software:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RcwKYpTEWE

Last edited by czarnajama; 3rd Jul 2017 at 07:43.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 02:57
  #748 (permalink)  
 
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Via czarnajama:
"...can even be completely automated with on-board software..."
I think that detail is something a lot of people don't fully understand yet. The cheap technology has been around a while now for a fully preprogrammed autonomous drone flight with no inputs from a ground controller. From launch to recovery.

A scenario to relate it to the thread issue - Thanks to GPS a drone could be launched to fly a pre-programmed race track on the final approach or departure ends of a runway waiting for a pax jet to fly near or into it. If a small explosive device (something like a hand grenade) were added to the drone and some proximity alert devices installed (cheaply available from the automotive parts world) then what we got is a poor mans (terrorist) anti-aircraft missile.....






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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 06:57
  #749 (permalink)  
 
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UAV's such as the Gemini are really only ever going to be in the hands of enthusiasts, whom one would hope will know better....

The more commonly attributable DJI drones, the Mavic, Phantom, and the more expensive Inspire are the one's which are more accessible to the newbie, but have impressive performance for their size.

DJI and the other manufacturers are becoming more switched on. They are using GPS to disable the UAV in certain areas. Unfortunately as with most software some backdoors exist, and I believe there is some firmware circulating that circumvents the protection. The protected areas are mostly a radius around the centre of runways, rather than following any Class of airspace.

DJI will switch off the protection for people with PfCO at specific time and locations, with prior notice and proof etc.

Whether Pilots like it or not UAV Drone's are out of the box and sharing your air.

The real issue is the lack of enforcement of the regs. Currently the CAA seem to have little interest, unless it's one of the 'big' events such as this. Other people flouting the rules will not be investigated or prosecuted. There was a video recently taken by a drone of an event in Kent. The event had well over 1,000 people and no-one with normal permissions would be able to fly over the crowd legally. The chap who filmed it had no PfCO and should not even have been in the air in that location, without the crowd. He has other video's which flouts the regs.

His video was reported to the police, who gave him a warning as he was not aware of the regs.

If he had driven a car without a license would a warning be appropriate?

The regulations are not being followed, simply because they are not being enforced.

Do I believe a Drone will bring down a plane? I'm not sure. I do believe that a collision in the present system is inevitable. Will it bring down a plane? That may be down to luck - which is not acceptable.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 08:13
  #750 (permalink)  
 
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A/C diverting. Pax being hugely inconvenienced. Airline incurs a not inconsiderable cost. Surely this event highlights it was not an insignificant moment.

The radio reported that LGW closed the runway, (I assume airspace) for 9mins on 2 occasions. Would this really require diversions? Just how much fuel did those guys have? Surely enough to hold for a couple of circles?
I wonder what the real effort was in finding the [email protected] culprits. Will the effort into finding these drone infringers be any greater? Where to start? Surely this will increase the call to have some registration & ID on the units. If you can 'find my phone' via GPS or whatever system it uses, then surely a drone can carry a phone sized battery/transmitter to enable it to be tracked and identified when necessary? I can not see a technological problem. It depends if there will be legislation to do so. It might even be the interest of the owner if they lose sight of it and it crashes or drifts off on the wind.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 08:35
  #751 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RAT 5 View Post
A/C diverting. Pax being hugely inconvenienced. Airline incurs a not inconsiderable cost. Surely this event highlights it was not an insignificant moment.

The radio reported that LGW closed the runway, (I assume airspace) for 9mins on 2 occasions. Would this really require diversions? Just how much fuel did those guys have? Surely enough to hold for a couple of circles?
I wonder what the real effort was in finding the [email protected] culprits. Will the effort into finding these drone infringers be any greater? Where to start? Surely this will increase the call to have some registration & ID on the units. If you can 'find my phone' via GPS or whatever system it uses, then surely a drone can carry a phone sized battery/transmitter to enable it to be tracked and identified when necessary? I can not see a technological problem. It depends if there will be legislation to do so. It might even be the interest of the owner if they lose sight of it and it crashes or drifts off on the wind.
There was a consultation earlier this year, due for publication later this year. I would not be surprised to see that registration becomes obligatory. But it's not going to help find the drone unless it falls to the ground....
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 08:45
  #752 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE]drone unless it falls to the ground/QUOTE]

How about requiring the drone to transmit its registration at all times?
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 08:49
  #753 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR View Post
I'm amazed that someone in telecomms at the airport hasn't thought of transmitting jamming signals on the drone frequencies within, say, 5nm of the airfield.
That would be the end of Wi-Fi for anyone living near the airport as well as anyone wanting t o use the Wi-Fi within the airport too.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 08:50
  #754 (permalink)  
 
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[quote=Daysleeper;9819430]
drone unless it falls to the ground/QUOTE]

How about requiring the drone to transmit its registration at all times?
That's OK for expensive drones of the future that have that capability but no good for the cheap ones everyone has at the moment
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 08:58
  #755 (permalink)  
 
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[quote=bbrown1664;9819435]
Originally Posted by Daysleeper View Post

That's OK for expensive drones of the future that have that capability but no good for the cheap ones everyone has at the moment
Yeah, but I think the genie is well out of the bottle for the current generation of drones. So we change the rules for all drones sold after say 1 Jan 2018 and we just have to hope like most consumer electronics the current ones are all broken in 2-3 years.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 09:09
  #756 (permalink)  
 
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Very few drones have this capability. DJI have however launched the Matrice 200 which includes an ADS-B receiver...

While a transponder seems like a sensible requirement, what would ATC do with all of these extra blips appearing at low height etc.?
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 09:29
  #757 (permalink)  
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I Could Kill You with a Consumer Drone

As a former soldier in the U.S. Army with previous access to some of the most sophisticated and sensitive drone technology in our government’s arsenal, and as the current owner of a consumer drone business that sells tens of thousands of drones every year, I can tell you that the U.S. government should be concerned. I know how consumers are modifying them to meet their needs, and I can tell you that the problem is going to get bigger than anyone thinks, and fast.
I Could Kill You with a Consumer Drone - Defense One
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 09:35
  #758 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RAT 5 View Post
A/C diverting. Pax being hugely inconvenienced. Airline incurs a not inconsiderable cost. Surely this event highlights it was not an insignificant moment.

The radio reported that LGW closed the runway, (I assume airspace) for 9mins on 2 occasions. Would this really require diversions? Just how much fuel did those guys have? Surely enough to hold for a couple of circles?
I wonder what the real effort was in finding the [email protected] culprits. Will the effort into finding these drone infringers be any greater? Where to start? Surely this will increase the call to have some registration & ID on the units. If you can 'find my phone' via GPS or whatever system it uses, then surely a drone can carry a phone sized battery/transmitter to enable it to be tracked and identified when necessary? I can not see a technological problem. It depends if there will be legislation to do so. It might even be the interest of the owner if they lose sight of it and it crashes or drifts off on the wind.
The NAP-LGW Easy flight diverted to STN squawking 7700 after a short hold over the south coast. Maybe due to fuel state?
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 09:45
  #759 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by davidjpowell View Post
Most (all) consumer drones would have been working hard at max power to get to that altitude (for those that can). And they will have no endurance left at all. Basically turning into an expensive falling stone.

The enterprise drones that have longer endurance cost into five figures. Lot of money to risk, not to mention CAA approvals.

That's why I'm sceptical.
Not sure I agree - a friend's son brought his "toy" drone on a ski trip earlier this year, and was quite happily flying it around at 3000m and above, taking video. From where I was watching it appeared to have plenty of power to spare, and endurance didn't seem to be an issue.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 09:57
  #760 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst not all drone bomber footage is credible, LiveLeak is of the opinion this footage is...
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5db_1498777854

Note re cuts to vid: "...edited it down so it wasn't so slow and boring..."





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