Dublin: 2 x RYR in contact during taxi. Both damaged.

[Globally Challenged]

I would say that one of them did make a slot (admittedly in the elevator of another aircraft)

[meekmok]

Globally Challanged, please use proper terminology. It's not an elevator, it's a "rear wing"

[Capot]

Obviously it was no big deal if DUB ARFF couldn't be bothered...

Having the outside brigade on standby, if having some firefighters on standby is necessary, might have been to enable the Airport RFFS to revert to the published Category, although you might think that if the airport RFFS is on standby near a particular aircraft they would still be available for a full emergency elsewhere, unless the response time is compromised somehow.

[Burnie5204]

Airports have agreements with Local Authority Fire and Rescue (they have to under Civil Contingencies Act) and in that will be a PDA level (pre-determined attendance).

What this means is that they agree that if they have a certain type of emergency then the Local Authorities (Police, Fire and Ambulance) will send an agreed minimum number of appliances to ensure appropriate facilities are in place for the Worst Case Scenario in each category of incident because even if an airport has ARFF Cat10 they would not have the resources to fully deal with even a 737-300 (Cat 6 a/c) crashing on the runway.

For example this could be:
Aircraft Accident: 4 Police Officers, 1 Police Supervisor, 4 Ambulances, 2 Ambulance RRVs, 1 Ambulance Officer, 6 Fire Tenders, 1 Fire Command Vehicle
Full emergency standby (Pax): 4 Police Officers, 1 Police Supervisor, 4 Ambulances, 2 Ambulance RRVs, 1 Ambulance Officer, 6 Fire Tenders, 1 Fire Command Vehicle
Full Emergency standby (Cargo): 4 Police Officers, 1 Police Supervisor, 1 Ambulance, 1 Ambulance RRV, 3 Fire Tenders, 1 Fire Command Vehicle
Aircraft Ground Incident: 1 Police Officer, 2 Fire Tenders.

It's a precautionary thing and (certainly where I am) they are dispatched by an auto-dialler indicating the level of PDA required with the Police getting a follow up phonecall with initial details and receive full updates from the ARFF fire control as to the situation once they start making their way.

This will have been classed as an Aircraft Ground Incident (AGI), and possibly even an Aircraft Accident, and will therefore have received the appropriate PDA agreed for that. They may not be, and were not, needed but the Initial Action procedures have to be rigid in saying - it's an AGI so activate AGI PDA and if the ARFF commander then declares an aircraft accident, activate the AirAcc PDA (unless the ARFF Cdr says he does not need further local authority assistance)

Don't forget - ARFF categories are not about being able to fully deal with an incident but to be able to CONTROL a worst case scenario incident to increase the chances of survivability until Local Authority can provide backup. Where situation occurs that they are able to fully deal with to conclusion then local authority can be stood-down but until it is clear that the ARFF can deal with it themselves the Local Authority will always start making their way to the Rendezvous Point.

[Carbon Bootprint]

Having the outside brigade on standby, if having some firefighters on standby is necessary, might have been to enable the Airport RFFS to revert to the published Category, although you might think that if the airport RFFS is on standby near a particular aircraft they would still be available for a full emergency elsewhere, unless the response time is compromised somehow.

Fair enough. My comment was actually intended more-or-less tongue in cheek at the lack of context in the BBC reference. I can appreciate the wisdom of having external fire resources tend to a minor mishap to avoid limiting normal flight operations.

[Capot]

And Burnie was quite right too; the local lads will respond automatically at a level graded to how the emergency is categorised. The level is usually on the cautious side, ie better to have too much than too little. But if they hang around when the emergency is apparently over it's probably to free the airport RFFS to restore/maintain Category. But an off-field emergency could quickly change their readiness to do that.

[Sean Dell]

Dublin has been asking for this sort of incident for years. Some of the worst labelling / most misleading taxiways I have ever had the misfortune of using. Coupled with an ATC that assume intricate local knowledge. Not surprised by the incident, but was surprised by the fact it happened to locals....

[Hangar6]

Locals?

None involved , but let's wait for the official report !

[ayroplain]

Let's look back and see which other airlines have put aircraft together in similar ways. I don't think ryanair would be at the top of the list.

Yes, indeed, "people in glasshouses, etc". Remind me what airline fairly recently had a 747 totalled when its crew taxied into a building?

[Wisden Wonder]

Where is the 'give em a cuddle' brigade.

You will upset the applecart 'aryoplain', and so you should.
Just think on that 'they' didn't get up this morning intending to run a wing tip through a tailplane, the taxiway is very narrow, the visibility was poor, 'they' were very busy in the cockpit with take-off clearances etc. how many more excuses do you want to cover the incompetence, but at least they will be flying these two machines again, and this particular airline has a very good safety record.

[racedo]

Yes, indeed, "people in glasshouses, etc". Remind me what airline fairly recently had a 747 totalled when its crew taxied into a building?

True and at least the Ryanair engines didn't fall apart either because someone forgot to check something.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Originally Posted by Alycidon

Maximum speed on the apron is 15 kts, where did you get the 30 kts from?

Yes, and the maximum speed on UK motorways is 70.....

[22/04]

Agree with the comment about Dublin. Looked at the ICAO chart and the foxtrot/alpha taxiway area looks very tight. Would a single taxiway remodelled to give a single queue back from the 34 threshold work?

Can anyone superimpose on the chart the point of collision as I can't quite work it out from the photos.

[Blues&twos]

Not having a dig at anyone, I've never been comfortable with the term 'incompetence' when referring to frontline staff in highly regulated industries and rapidly changing environments. In the vast majority of incidents there are a large number of factors which come into play to create the conditions for an accident. Many highly trained, experienced people have been involved in incidents (the Dutch captain, Tenerife, for example) over the years. They are absolutely competent, but for a variety of reasons have slipped up, or been misled. We all do it all the time to a certain degree, but most of our mistakes are inconsequential because the task we are performing is not safety critical.
Stating incompetence as a cause isn't looking beyond the most superficial level of investigation, if it can even be called investigation at that level.

[BARKINGMAD]

CONTRIBUTORY FACTOR #1 in series of 94,000.

One of the most difficult parts of any flight I did over 42 years, in seat 0A or 0B, was finding my way to/from the runway from/to the parking stand.

Despite all the ICAO waffle about standard airfield markings, this is still one of the most inadequately managed resources for aircrew to navigate around airfields.

My dream is to take one of those individuals responsible for such signage on a very early morning or late night trip, when they are fatigued in the thorough and scientific way beloved of airline scheduling/commercial departments.

Preferably in limited visibility, or wet or snowy conditions, so the ground markings are impossible to discern and with a time limit on THEIR perception of where the aircraft is and where it's going, maybe the designers and executors of this pathetic system may appreciate the many shortcomings of their cleverly designed signage.

Then task them with going back to the office and doing something useful for their salary by improving on a system which has attracted criticism, most of it constructive but ultimately insufficient to attract attention and effort until post-accident.

Yes there have been suggestions of cockpit based displays which would make the task easier, but a cheaper (are you listening, management?) and more readily available option to ALL aircraft, regardless of type and sophistication, must be a rapid and foolproof revision to the existing specs for signage.

Is there anyone out there in the ICAO road signs office who would like to defend or comment on their record to date on this topic?

Meantime I'll pop up to the loft and try find my tin hat...............

[Bernoulli]

Were the pilots involved in this unfortunate incident employed by Ryanair or were they contractors? Will they work again for Ryanair or will they be treated like pilots are in the sandpit; one slip and you're out?

[Basil]

Recollect, during mutual SEP training, CC referring to 'the back wing' but we knew what she meant.
In any case weren't they once referred to as 'mainplane' and 'tailplane'?
Birds have wings and aeroplanes have planes (as it says on the tin)

[fireflybob]

Having previously operated to/from Dublin for 5 years I found it one of the more challenging airports to safely navigate around.

It's an airport that has just evolved over the years - nobody in his right mind would design an airport like this from scratch.

[vfenext]

Having previously operated to/from Dublin for 5 years I found it one of the most challenging airports to safely navigate around.

Hilarious! Perhaps you need to get out more.

[fireflybob]

Having previously operated to/from Dublin for 5 years I found it one of the most challenging airports to safely navigate around

Hilarious! Perhaps you need to get out more.

I had meant to say one of the "more" challenging airports etc so will amend my post.

I reiterate what I have stated though. There are a lot of potential traps when taxying around this airport.

I can assure you that I do not "need to get out more" - I've probably taxied around more airports than you have had hot dinners.