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Sunwing flight escorted back to Toronto

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Sunwing flight escorted back to Toronto

Old 27th Jul 2014, 19:59
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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chips101 - that was a tactical unit of the Peel Regional Police, i.e. local police, not even Toronto police or RCMP.

The Canadian SOF (JTF2 etc..) are very different, as those who have served with them in Helmand, Kandahar etc.can attest. They get called out for the real terrorists...
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Old 27th Jul 2014, 20:50
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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This thread has certainly taken the notion of Monday morning quarterbacking to a whole new level. But I'm sure you're all perfect, so what's the harm ...
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Old 27th Jul 2014, 21:03
  #23 (permalink)  

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Checkers - The SWAT team should take a look at the clips (especially the second), sit down and work out a new plan which would not have killed many people had there actually been a dangerous, armed, person there, rather than a standard nut case.

People in the back had absolutely no idea what was going on.
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Old 27th Jul 2014, 21:11
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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It's not about us being perfect, it's about the right and wrong way to do things
- like assault aircraft, buildings, take control of the environment.

Another aspect, the first 4 if not 5 Police all have their weapons pointing
down the corridor and / or at the policeman in front of them.
I very much doubt the threat is the policeman in front of them.


BTW, if they haven't been trained for that scenario, then it's not totally
them to blame.
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Old 27th Jul 2014, 21:38
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Either the guy's an immediate threat or he's not. If he's a threat, why did the aircraft fly 45 minutes back to Pearson instead of diverting to someplace closer?
I cannot believe that during that 45 minutes the crew were not able to report back exactly what the situation was. So somewhere the message got lost. Overkill isn't in it . . .
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Old 27th Jul 2014, 22:01
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I'd go further than that

The SWAT team should take a look at the clips (especially the second), sit down and work out a new plan which would not have killed many people had there actually been a dangerous, armed, person there, rather than a standard nut case.
I'd go further than that, and say that the SWAT team should not exist.

Either it's necessary to militarily storm an airplane full of passengers (which I believe may have been done successfully at the very most a handful of times, worldwide, in my lifetime) or it is not necessary. If it's necessary, then for God's sake, bring in the best special forces team in the region to do the job. and do it. This is not the kind of operation to be carried out by a couple of members of the local constabulary to whom you've given some surplus military kit and a weekend's worth of training. Encouraging local police departments to play commando is a good way to get innocent people killed.
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Old 28th Jul 2014, 09:02
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Cringeworthy video of the gung-ho members.

Glad there were no injuries, but come on, you can tell if someone is just saying something out of frustration as this guy did and handle it accordingly.
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Old 28th Jul 2014, 14:13
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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So I guess we should just ignore angry, "crazy" folks with arabic sounding names making bomb "jokes". Just laugh it off, hand him a cookie and a cold drink...maybe an upgrade as he is obviously just frustrated????

Yes the tactics need a review, but I don't see the outrage over the repsonse.
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Old 28th Jul 2014, 15:36
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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False dichotomy

So I guess we should just ignore angry, "crazy" folks with arabic sounding names making bomb "jokes". Just laugh it off, hand him a cookie and a cold drink...maybe an upgrade as he is obviously just frustrated????
Your logical fallacy is black-or-white. There are many, many possible responses that are neither "ignore him," nor "have the local police put on a Kabuki show."

Yes the tactics need a review, but I don't see the outrage over the repsonse.
Can you imagine a single possible scenario under which you, as PIC of an aircraft full of passengers, would want this response? Can you think of a single incident in the history of aviation in which this would have been a good idea? Guy with a bomb -- he's going to detonate it when he sees the cops board. Guy with a gun -- he's going to either start shooting or grab a hostage when the cops board.
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Old 28th Jul 2014, 16:05
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Most passengers are reporting that the most traumatic part of the flight was the storming of the aircraft by the Swat Police.

The police hand-cuffed, arrested and detained his girl friend. During the flight, she was observed trying to calm him down during and after his outbursts.

If his whole family was on board, would they have arrested all of them too?

The militarization of civilian police forces is escalating all over North America at an alarming rate. The costs of these teams, even in small town America, is borne by the local tax payer.

Swat Teams in full body armour and shields, (and armoured vehicles for that matter), are being used more frequently for things like domestic assault and busts for simple drug possession and low level trafficking. NOT funny when they get the wrong house.

As Bill Maher said recently "Even white people are afraid of the police now in America".

Last edited by evansb; 28th Jul 2014 at 20:16.
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Old 28th Jul 2014, 16:51
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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I would have no idea what to do: "hands down heads up" or "heads down hands up". hands and heads kind of sound the same when they scream like that.

Police like to scream, but they don't realise they are not being very clear with their instructions in general.
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Old 28th Jul 2014, 17:34
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Agree. In fact, when watching one of the videos, I thought at first the last Policeman who stopped near the door
had actually said in one sequence
"Heads up, hands down".

I think that is Police training where they like to see the hands.

As opposed to "Everyone down".
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Old 31st Jul 2014, 20:47
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Having had a lot of experience in Toronto (YYZ and the city itself) the cops show of force is not surprising. This would have been like Christmas for them.
Toronto and the GTA is pretty quiet given its size so SWAT or what ever they call themselves probably welcomed the action.
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Old 1st Aug 2014, 08:41
  #34 (permalink)  

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So, if you just quietly sat there with your hands in your lap looking at them, would they shoot you?
Given how 'Keystone Kop' the operation was they've probably forgotten to bring bullets..
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Old 2nd Aug 2014, 10:41
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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I have experienced a similar situation involving the same Police force very near to Toronto airport - on a bus where apparently an individual (who was clearly mentally ill) had perhaps muttered something about a "device".

In that incident a single officer charged onto the bus in body armour - with no obvious Police markings - pointing his weapon at each of us in turn screaming "Which one? Which one?" to the bus driver.

Apparently it wasn't obvious that it might be the crazy looking old guy, talking loudly to himself, wearing a large handwritten sign with the words "Super Actor" on it - and carrying a huge sparkly tin-foil covered box with odd decorations.

So compared to that incident - the recent operation looks extremely well-planned and executed!
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