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Ryanair and 900 hours a year limitation?

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Old 4th Aug 2002, 07:40
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Exclamation

Yes.

Ryanair pilots are doing more than 900 hours 'in any 12 calendar month period'

Ryanair pilots are doing more than 900 hours 'in any 365 day period'

Ryanair pilots are doing more than 900 hours a year however you want to measure it.

It is true that before 1st April anyone who went over the 900 hours 'at the end of the previous month' was given the next month off.

This rule has been ignored since 1st April 2002, when they 'zeroed the clock' and only applied the 100 hours in 28 days rule.

If you decide you are not prepared to go over 900 hours and point this out to Management you are asked if you are refusing to fly. If the answer is yes, this goes on your record. 3 refusals and your fired. You can take them to Court for unfair dismissal, but to date no-one has had the balls to, because the law isn't exactly clear on the pilots responsibility verses that of the Operator. And no fired pilot, who will probably now never be able to fly professionally again, has the resources to fight Ryanair over a point of Avaition Law, to prove unfair dismissal.

JAR Ops hasn't exactly been forward in clarifying it. Ryanair's excuse to the IAA has always been that it has not been administratively practical or realistic to monitor any individual pilots hours 'in any 12 calendar month period', although in this day and age of computer technology, this is just a convenient excuse, and last year allowed Ryanair to roster over 900 hours mid month.

Thus the IAA have accepted the Operators responsibility of ONLY monitoring an individual pilots hours at the END OF THE PREVIOUS MONTH. Thus it is feasible for a pilot to GO OVER the 900 hours mid month and the Operator (Ryanair) have exempt themselves from prosecution from the IAA. IE the pilot is illegal, but the Operator isn't. Stinks of double standards, doesn't it?

This has now worsened since 1st April, as now pilots have gone over 900 hours at the end of the previous month, and not been given the next month off. This, arguably, is a breach of the Operators responsibility, but the IAA have STILL DONE NOTHING.

The IAA as VERY aware of the situation. They have had countless phone calls from petrified Ryanair pilots. All the IAA tell them is that they cannot fly more than 900 hours in any 12 calendar month period. However when told they are being forced to, the IAA HAVE DONE NOTHING TO STOP RYANAIR DOING IT.

Since April, 3 pilots have now resigned, in the main, over this issue.

It will be interesting to see what happens in Feb/March 2003, but I suspect they will, by then, be ignoring the 900 hour rule completely and keep rostering flights, based on the 100 hour in 28 days limitation only. Roll on 1200 hours a year....

I want to know what the IAA are going to do about it.

This issue is extremely political. It is worth $$millions to the likes of Ryanair, and MOL, and is worth him going to Court over.

The IAA also know this, so if they actually do do anything, it is going to end up in Court.

BUT THIS DOES NOT ABSOLVE THEM OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITY.

As I know every Ryanair pilot will tell you... It is difficult to know what to do, when you are placed between a rock and a hard place, and in this case the rock is the IAA, and the hard place is Ryanair. There will only be one looser...
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Old 4th Aug 2002, 09:26
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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'tis time for some of you to prove this, I would suggest...

So how about some Ryans posting their total hours for the period 1 Jul 01 - 30 Jun 02 on this thread - anonymously, of course!

There again, perhaps a few customer letters to MoL stating that, due to allegations made about RyanAir's flagrant disregard of JAR-OPS fatigue requirements, you will NEVER fly with them until you receive categoric assurance that the crews operating his aeroplanes will not have exceeded 900 hours flight time (chocks away to chocks under) in the previous 365 days - as you don't want to risk your neck flying in an aircraft operated by fatigued pilots!
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Old 9th Aug 2002, 09:36
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Unhappy

952 hours
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Old 9th Aug 2002, 10:09
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Mole,

I suppose it depends on how you interpret the rules.
Looks like MOL interprets them how he likes.
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Old 22nd Aug 2002, 07:40
  #125 (permalink)  
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From the Times 22 August:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...391038,00.html
 
Old 22nd Aug 2002, 10:12
  #126 (permalink)  
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Interesting that the IAA suggest contacting the police...........
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Old 22nd Aug 2002, 10:56
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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As regards these allegations, is there anyone who thinks the UK CAA does not have a responsability to investergate the UK side of Ryanair's operations?
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Old 22nd Aug 2002, 13:17
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Ryanair Management posted this statement on the pilot notice boards today;

Ryanair said today (22nd August 2002) that the headline in this mornings London Times newspaper which claims that "Ryanair demands pilots work past limit" is incorrect and factually untrue.

Ryanair operates to an approved flight time limitation system, whereby no Ryanair pilot can fly more than 900 hours in any year. Any Ryanair pilot who reaches 900 hours is not allowed to fly until the commencement of the following year. The year runs from 01 April to 31 March inclusive, to co-incide with Ryanair's holiday year. Additionally Ryanair's pilots are also subject to individual monthly limits of 100 flight hours.

This sysytem is further enhanced by Ryanair's stable rosters, all of which are issued 28 days in advance, with a gauranteed minimum of 5 days off in every 14 day period, with pilots operating from their home bases and no night-time flying.

By comparison, the flight limitation system in Germany permits pilots to fly up to 1000 hours in the period of the calendar year.

Over ther lasty year to the 31 March 2002, no Ryanair pilot either reached or exceeded this 900 hour limit, and the average flight hours for each Ryanair pilot was 809 hours.

22nd August 2002
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Old 22nd Aug 2002, 15:03
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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more wrong info re ryanair!
alloy- caa regularly inspects fr a/c and hours) at stn,pik&ltn.
lba recently did my a/c in hahn. no probs.
sapco2- e.u. have already confirmed they have received no
complaint from e.c.a. and r not conducting any investig.
sorry if the facts dont support the rumour- as usual where fr is concerned on this site.
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Old 22nd Aug 2002, 17:39
  #130 (permalink)  

Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
 
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So the question is:
Is the IAA 900hr limit an annuual limit from April 1 to March 31, or is it a monthly maximum of 900hrs as per the UK CAA maximum:
"During the period of 12 months, expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900hrs"

If it is the later the Ryanair notice admits that it is guilty of breaching the 900hr limit.
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Old 23rd Aug 2002, 06:45
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Exclamation 900 Hours

From Irish Independant 23rd August

A RYANAIR pilot has officially complained to the Irish Aviation Authority that he has been forced to fly more than the legally permitted 900 hours a year.


If it is proved Ryanair has forced a pilot to exceed permitted flying limits it would prompt huge concerns about safety.


The pilot's complaint came in the last week, and coincides with damning coverage in a British newspaper yesterday claiming that the low-cost airline forces its pilots to exceed the flying limits.


Ryanair denied the allegation and said its rostering for its pilots was measured by the month and limits are not broken.


In a statement the low-cost carrier said: "Over the last year to March 31, 2002, no Ryanair pilot either reached or exceeded this 900-hour limit and the average flight hours for each Ryanair pilot was 809 hours."


However, a spokesperson for the Irish Aviation Authority confirmed yesterday that a Ryanair pilot has alleged in the last week that he has been forced to exceed the flying limits.


"The allegation was being treated as a priority and was definitely being followed up," the spokesperson said.


But she said the watchdog for Irish airlines had found no evidence to support claims in the London 'Times' that in general Ryanair made it pilots fly more than the 900 hours a year recommended by the Irish Aviation Authority and Europen safety regulators.


Ryanair insisted last night that it did not compromise on safety. Any of its pilots who reach 900 hours are not allowed to fly until the beginning of the following year.


"This system is further enhanced by Ryanair's stable rosters, all of which are issued 28 days in advance, with a guaranteed minimum of five days off in every 14-day period, with pilots operating from their home bases and no night-time flying."


Ryanair is registered in Dublin and comes under the control of the Irish Aviation Authority even though its biggest base is at Stansted, near London.


The British Airline Pilots Association (BALPA), which represents pilots in the UK, said yesterday it had received "several" complaints from Ryanair staff concerned about flying hours.


Airline sources at Dublin airport said Ryanair was in the habit of pushing its pilots up to the limit of the permitted flight hours.


Last night the Irish Aviation Authority denied claims it had in any way weakened its rules on flying times to suit the Michael O'Leary-run airline. "These are international regulations that have been laid down. We have not changed the rules for Ryanair," the spokesperson said.



Charlie Weston
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Old 23rd Aug 2002, 09:39
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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I was thrilled and delighted to read the accurate and true article in the Times yesterday.

We all know the biggest threat to passenger safety isn't from terrorism, pilot ability, design or engineering issues or other areas - it's tiredness and fatigue. ( that applies to pilots and maintenance engineers!)

A tired pilot is worse than a drunk pilot.
The sooner the "bully boy" tactics from Ryanair management are understoood by every passenger - the better.
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Old 23rd Aug 2002, 11:00
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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I`m a bit confused here masterplanner...at the top of the article it says that 900 hours is the maximum legally permitted, but further on down it says that the 900 hours is a recommendation by the IAA and European safety inspectors...
I`m pretty sure it is inteded to mean "legally permitted", but can you clarify this for me?To me it kinda sounds like "max demonstrated crosswind" - which is not a limitation, but how smart are you to exceed it?

The pilot was "forced" to fly more than the permitted/recommended 900 hours?why didn`t the pilot notify the company that he/she was approaching the 900 hours and possibly would exceed this?Not trying to enforce either of the parties here, but as a pilot you do have a certain responsibility when it comes to maximum tolerances.HAs to do with safety.

Knows, I totally agree with you on what is dangerous.I`d like to add to your list with "a stupid pilot".But I guess that`s a prerequisite to get on your list

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Old 23rd Aug 2002, 13:06
  #134 (permalink)  

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In the Uk it is quite legal to exceed the 900hrs in the middle of the month, the requirement is from the 1st of each month only. The calculation is also very easy; keep a ruunning total of hours, at the end of each month add 900 and that is what you cannot exceed for the next year.
I cannot understand how any rostering department cannot calculate that; unless the don't want to.
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Old 23rd Aug 2002, 16:50
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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The following memo was posted on Ryanair Pilot Notice Boards today;

To all pilots



Following a meeting between the IAA and Ryanair today (Friday 23rd August 2002), it was confirmed by both parties that neither Ryanair nor its pilots have breached current approved flight time limitations. Ryanair have agreed to build in further safeguards for new recruits, or pilots on long-term illness, to further ensure that current approved FTL's will be respected.

Ryanair and the IAA have agreed to review the current approved FTL's in order to clarify the working of the present scheme.


Chief Pilot
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Old 23rd Aug 2002, 17:28
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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I smell a rat.

How much can you determine of something of this nature in a meeting? If the CAA received allegations of this type there'd be an audit of all the FTL records, checks on pilots' own records, etc. THis would take several days.

If BALPA has received "several" complaints, I would have thought that it would take time to examine these.

Instead, they hold a meeting which agrees that "neither Ryanair nor its pilots have breached current approved flight time limitations."

Further, if there is no problem, why have Ryanair had to build in extra safeguards, and why do these only apply for new recruits? And why does someone on long-term illness need FTL protection if they're not working? WTHIH??
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Old 24th Aug 2002, 00:33
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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The IAA is the absolute kick-to-touch organisation.

Previously they went along with FR's assertion that Block time did not include push back time
"since the aircraft was not under its own power".

They backtracked after the issue went public.

Many moons ago they published their 'brief' guidelines to crew duty hours and rest. It was quite liberal by any standard. Since then they have amended it several times to facilitate the objections of a few operators. They have relaxed a relaxed document.

Synonyms for IAA:

In the pocket
Spineless
Downtown Office
The Chief Pilots Office

Little wonder that the Ireland is to aviation what Panama is to merchant shipping:

a flag of convenience.


As for anyone in the IAA having enough balls to tackle a problem - did you not realise you must be a eunuch to work for them?

Last edited by Mach Buffet; 24th Aug 2002 at 00:38.
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Old 24th Aug 2002, 09:50
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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HugMonster

The IAA received the pilot's complaint last week (according to the press report) so they may well have been carrying out an audit of FTL records in the run up to the reported meeting.

While BALPA may have received several complaints no where in the report does it says that these have been passed to the IAA or Ryanair. I don't know whether BALPA has passed the information but if they had I would have expected that to be mentioned in the BALPA statement. The IAA cannot investigate information they don't have.

The statement that no pilots have exceeded limits does not necessarily mean that there are no weaknesses in the scheme. The IAA may well have identified some in an review following the complaint. With regards to new recruits and pilots on sick leave they may well only be flying for the airline for say last nine months of the set year and have a theoretical limit of 900 hours in that period.
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Old 24th Aug 2002, 12:18
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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I appreciate this topic is focused on IAA attitudes, but SKY9 made a comment that it's OK to bust 900pa as it only applies on the 1st of the month. Hm?

I was always confused by this reasoning. It had always been told to me that a roster was a rolling affair. You could fly 990 hours in 365 days. Simple.

Further, I could fly 100 in 28 days. Imagine my surprise to receive a roster where on the morning of day 28 I had accumulated 95 hours and had a 10hr flight ahead of me that would land on day 28. I was assured by my rosterers that it was legal as I was below 100hrs at take off and it was a single sector. (however if I diverted en-route, I'd be stuck?) I then had a days rest down route and in a rolling 28 period was now back to 97 hrs with a 9hr flight to get back home and land with 106hrs in 28 days.
Amazingly BALPA said they had questioned this with CAA and been told it was OK. BALPA didn't agree but has not, to my knowledge, tried to oppose this abuse.
It says 900 per year and 100 per 28. That to me is simple, it needs to be. It can not be a grey area otherwise the abuses will be rife and the lawyers and insurasnce boys will have a field day after the crash.
Add to this the calculation of allowed duty when called from SBY. That is a whole other can of worms that even the crewing dept's can't work out, and that brings in the whole matter of accepting illegal duties. It's that or head master's study the next morning.

I hear stories that there are schemes where a roster week starts on Mondays. Thus the calculations pertaining to a week are no longer 7 days but Monday-Sunday. Somehow or other you are supposed to be bright eyed and bushey tailed at 0600 on a Monday ready for a fresh weeks work, having just be at it for a few days already. Can't be the idea at all, can it? or am I missing something.

Why o' why is it necessary to make an easy job difficult. Is that last drop of sweat so important to the bean counters?
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Old 24th Aug 2002, 13:09
  #140 (permalink)  

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Rat5
I am quoting the UK CAA definition

22 ABSOLUTE LIMITED ON FLYING HOURS

A person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all previous flight times:
(a) during the period of 28 consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100hrs; or
(b) during the period of 12 months, expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900hrs.

It follows therefore that you start a flight (not a series of flights) if you have exceeded 100hr within the last 28 days and the 900hrs is not a rolling year but a calendar 12 months.

Interestingly there is nothing to say that the 900hrs is wiped clean if you join a new employer so when you take up new employment you should really give your new employer a copy of your logbook to enable them to comply (if the 900hrs is critical).
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