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Tel Aviv

Old 23rd Jul 2014, 01:01
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Both the number and range of rockets used against Israel has increased compared to prior cycles of violence (or whatever better neutral term you would prefer). Iron Dome isn't perfect and even hitting a single U.S. flagged aircraft, loaded with fuel and passengers, no matter the death toll, simply isn't worth the risk. To make matters worse, how about an Iron Dome missile that hits a plane, for whatever reason, or caused part of an inbound rocket to hit a plane, etc.

The political games that would be played after even a near-miss, both within the U.S. and internationally, should be obvious.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 01:09
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Don't think Israel will be too bothered, El Al stand to make a fortune.
A U.S. news source (CNN) reports

The Israel Airport Authority said the U.S. companies made the decisions on their own, and it urged them to reconsider, saying the airport was safe. "There is no reason that American carriers should stop flying to Israel and thus give a prize to terror," it said.
The BBC just ran a headline crawler to the effect that Netanyahu wants Kerry to lift the FAA band.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 01:59
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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After MH 17 an abundance of caution is in order.

What's the difference between Tel Aviv and Donetsk? They are both in war zones.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 02:11
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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parabellum:

Don't think Israel will be too bothered, El Al stand to make a fortune.
Not exactly. There are tours that have been scheduled for months. This is the "inexpensive" season because of the weather.

El Al cannot recover all the tour groups that are now not coming.

That hurts a lot of businesses in Israel.

A couple, who are friends here in California, just returned on Tuesday from a 10 day tour of Israel. Everything was "a okay" so far as they were concerned. The last night their hotel in Tel Aviv posted casual door signs on their rooms, "If you hear sirens, proceed to the secure area."

Lovely.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 02:51
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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I don't know where Hamas could even find medium-range SAM but Assad, as much as he doesn't like Hamas, would like to take down several israeli planes so he could have proliferated them a SAM or two, nothing is impossible today.
I'd imagine the Israelis keep a very beady eye on anything that looks like a launcher moving through Syria towards Lebanon. In 1982 they hammered Syrian SAM batteries in the region and even recently convoys have been destroyed in that area that were allegedly intended for Hamas.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 07:36
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Remember Israeli airliners have counter measures against missiles, as demonstrated by Arkia in Mombassa in 2002.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 08:39
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Seems after MH17 airlines and the traveling public are much more aware of the risk posed by war zones. And Israel around Gaza is currently a war zone in the opinion of may observers. In Germany Lufthansa halted all TLV flights for 24 hours, Air Berlin did for 36 hours, however for the latter one flights to TLV haven't been mandatory duties for the last few weeks and many crews decided not to risk it and therefore didn't do those rotations, management pilots therefore got a whole lot of first hand experience flying into Ben Gurion.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 09:27
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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I don't know where Hamas could even find medium-range SAM but Assad
Thousands of Libyan missiles from Qaddafi era missing in action - CBS News
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 09:45
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Hamas don't have to do anything now. You bet they will be contacted by all sorts of low life scum(even from the so called first world) out to make a fast buck . Look around the world . Even the frigging somalian pirates are armed to the teeth with deadly weapons nowadays. Who sells/gives it to them ?
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 11:43
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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"What's the difference between Tel Aviv and Donetsk? They are both in war zones."

russian rebels possess(ed) medium-range SAM(s), huge difference

flights to TLV are out of reach of Hamas MANPADs, in theory the plane could get hit from Hamas rocket or even Iron Dome but in theory it could get hit by a meteorite too

"Remember Israeli airliners have counter measures against missiles, as demonstrated by Arkia in Mombassa in 2002."

yupp, but those are not guaranteed to work every time
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 12:01
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Any time that you have uncontrolled (and uncontrollable) objects entering controlled airspace is a good time to perform a stringent risk analysis. The FAA appears to have done that.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 15:56
  #32 (permalink)  
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A good move by the FAA, no doubt under pressure from powerful interests.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 17:04
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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@SAS
Doubtless there were equally powerful interests opposing the move...
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Old 24th Jul 2014, 02:20
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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HI.


The El Al missile defense system would not provide defense against an unguided rocket that just happens to hit a plane on the ground (or in the air for that matter). El Al missile defense is against infrared guided missiles.

The Hammas Rockets are unguided and just pointed in a direction and they land where they land and boom. They might hit the airport or an airplane or they might hit a delicatessen or a movie theatre.

I do understand that the IRON DOME system costs 20,000 dollars per intercept. IRON DOME works against artillery or unguided rockets. TO MY KNOWLEDGE it would not stop a MANPAD.
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Old 24th Jul 2014, 06:42
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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The FAA are permitting flights now according to reports.
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Old 24th Jul 2014, 15:21
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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FAA lifts ban on TLV flights

Press Release ? FAA Statement?FAA Lifts Flight Restrictions for Ben Gurion International Airport

July 23, 2014

The FAA has lifted its restrictions on U.S. airline flights into and out of Israel’s Ben Gurion Airport by cancelling a Notice to Airmen it renewed earlier today. The cancellation is effective at approximately 11:45 p.m. EDT.

Before making this decision, the FAA worked with its U.S. government counterparts to assess the security situation in Israel and carefully reviewed both significant new information and measures the Government of Israel is taking to mitigate potential risks to civil aviation.

The FAA’s primary mission and interest are the protection of people traveling on U.S. airlines. The agency will continue to closely monitor the very fluid situation around Ben Gurion Airport and will take additional actions, as necessary.

The FAA initially instituted the flight prohibition on Tuesday, July 22, in response to a rocket strike that landed approximately one mile from the airport.
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Old 24th Jul 2014, 19:03
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Sho' nuff -

@BuzzFeedNews: [email protected], @united, @USAirways say they're resuming flights to Tel Aviv, Israel, after 2-day halt U.S. ends ban on flights to Israel - CNN.com
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Old 24th Jul 2014, 20:15
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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so, Hamas rockets suddenly stopped being dangerous for planes?
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 05:33
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Danger from missiles

Realistically, the danger is negligible. The rockets being fired at TLV are without warheads (removed to get the range), so they would have to directly hit a plane on approach or on the ground to do any damage. So far only one rocket fragment has made it as far as 1.6km from the airport (that is what triggered the FAA announcement, since rescinded).

However crews may still be uncomfortable. Nevertheless, all the major scheduled airlines except LH and TK are flying to BGN again now.
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 05:57
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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I am surprised at these airlines not flying. TK may have political rather than safety issues to contend with, but LH and its subsidiaries are a major presence at TLV so would assume they would start up again when EASA removed the ban.
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