MH17 down near Donetsk
Looting and wreckage removal.
Ive studied the timeline and source of the first reports of the rampant looting at MH17.
These reports were subsequently repeated around the world and "looting" seems to be interchanged with "wreckage removal".
The majority of reports originated from two journalists with Ukraine backgrounds who were on scene a few hours after the event.
Both guys apparently do not have a internet presence (twitter or Facebook) or reports published before the Ukraine conflict.
It is if they setup shop as freelancers to document the conflict. I say "shop", but there is no money in shooting a fringe conflict, $25 for a picture, $100 for video. Either you are motivated by pursing a photographic career or you are passionate about a niche subject.
There is no resume or record online of their experience, training or qualifications.
Incredibly, one of the guys spoke of the heartbreak of seeing victims so he searched though baggage to recover passports and tickets so he could return them to family!
There is no question about the passion they have for their country and commitment to recording the conflict, bravo for that, but with such passion comes a susceptibility to being overwhelmed by events. Without any management or oversight it is easy to overstep the boundaries of ethical journalism (if they have ever studied it).
In my view, they do not present as impartial, experienced nor professional journalists.
Yet they were accorded "special correspondent " status by Networks and newspapers around the world.
Of the several other professional photojournalists on scene that I have either spoken or written to, none have seen any looting.
Whilst the monitors were not around in the first 24 hours, this report from
Sabrina Tavernese, a Journalist with NY Times, who was also on scene the day of the crash, serves to balance those initial reports.
On July 24th Sabrina wrote
There have been widespread reports of looting, but Mr. Bociurkiw said his monitoring group, which has now spent more time at the site than any other, had not seen any. The Malaysians said they had seen valuables in the fields untouched, he noted, including a bottle of duty-free perfume, auto parts, backpacks full of belongings, a watch and some jewelry.
As with the myopic hysteria about systematic looting, shots being fired at monitors, obstruction and disrespect for victims I've yet to see hard evidence of wreckage being removed.
History suggests that a small number of cases of looting occurs in such a disasters as has occurred with Lockerbie, Space Shuttle and train crash disasters in France and Spain.
The more images and unedited video we see the better, but it is a dangerous matter indeed for the world to assume a freelance locally based photojournalist is not biased.
So beware the opinions from the first on scene in a conflict zone, it may be a passionate local freelancer, in lieu of a professional journalist.
These reports were subsequently repeated around the world and "looting" seems to be interchanged with "wreckage removal".
The majority of reports originated from two journalists with Ukraine backgrounds who were on scene a few hours after the event.
Both guys apparently do not have a internet presence (twitter or Facebook) or reports published before the Ukraine conflict.
It is if they setup shop as freelancers to document the conflict. I say "shop", but there is no money in shooting a fringe conflict, $25 for a picture, $100 for video. Either you are motivated by pursing a photographic career or you are passionate about a niche subject.
There is no resume or record online of their experience, training or qualifications.
Incredibly, one of the guys spoke of the heartbreak of seeing victims so he searched though baggage to recover passports and tickets so he could return them to family!
There is no question about the passion they have for their country and commitment to recording the conflict, bravo for that, but with such passion comes a susceptibility to being overwhelmed by events. Without any management or oversight it is easy to overstep the boundaries of ethical journalism (if they have ever studied it).
In my view, they do not present as impartial, experienced nor professional journalists.
Yet they were accorded "special correspondent " status by Networks and newspapers around the world.
Of the several other professional photojournalists on scene that I have either spoken or written to, none have seen any looting.
Whilst the monitors were not around in the first 24 hours, this report from
Sabrina Tavernese, a Journalist with NY Times, who was also on scene the day of the crash, serves to balance those initial reports.
On July 24th Sabrina wrote
There have been widespread reports of looting, but Mr. Bociurkiw said his monitoring group, which has now spent more time at the site than any other, had not seen any. The Malaysians said they had seen valuables in the fields untouched, he noted, including a bottle of duty-free perfume, auto parts, backpacks full of belongings, a watch and some jewelry.
As with the myopic hysteria about systematic looting, shots being fired at monitors, obstruction and disrespect for victims I've yet to see hard evidence of wreckage being removed.
History suggests that a small number of cases of looting occurs in such a disasters as has occurred with Lockerbie, Space Shuttle and train crash disasters in France and Spain.
The more images and unedited video we see the better, but it is a dangerous matter indeed for the world to assume a freelance locally based photojournalist is not biased.
So beware the opinions from the first on scene in a conflict zone, it may be a passionate local freelancer, in lieu of a professional journalist.
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yet another photo with holes
click img to enlarge.
This video shows a BUK intercepting its target:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWTE...youtu.be&t=21s
Last edited by OleOle; 26th Jul 2014 at 10:42.
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Meanwhile, a video of a large aircraft that has an explosion and then a burning right wing has been removed from You Tube. It was alledgedly MA17.
( ??? ?????????? ????? ??-30 - YouTube) .
( ??? ?????????? ????? ??-30 - YouTube) .
This video shows the An-26 shot down a few days before MH17.
See shape of the plane, not a 777; and blue sky, when people interviewed on the ground for MH17 said it was cloudy and they couldn't see at altitude.
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Paris Match
Few people seem to know about the Paris Match reconstruction. First a brief note about a piece of debris here: article.
Then a larger reconstruction with a map which looks quite similar in details to the map produced by one of the users here: Paris Match Piece, "Crash MH17" Google Map with photos by Paris Match
The Paris Match piece has been linked to before I believe. Their map contains a lot of photos that haven't been seen before (warning, many are very graphic). I will not link to them directly, but they can be found in the following folder:
http://cdn-new-europe1.ladmedia.fr/v...sMatch/alfred/
...with names that can be found by looking at the html in Google Maps, for instance P1_001.jpg (early photo of main debris field), P5_001.jpg (debris), P9_043.jpg (business class seat, no shrapnel damage), P9_044.jpg (further pieces of small debris in wheat field), P9_046.jpg (business class seats and section of plane skin).
Many of the photos included in the Paris Match map are hitherto unseen. They may contain more pieces of debris away from the main site.
Then a larger reconstruction with a map which looks quite similar in details to the map produced by one of the users here: Paris Match Piece, "Crash MH17" Google Map with photos by Paris Match
The Paris Match piece has been linked to before I believe. Their map contains a lot of photos that haven't been seen before (warning, many are very graphic). I will not link to them directly, but they can be found in the following folder:
http://cdn-new-europe1.ladmedia.fr/v...sMatch/alfred/
...with names that can be found by looking at the html in Google Maps, for instance P1_001.jpg (early photo of main debris field), P5_001.jpg (debris), P9_043.jpg (business class seat, no shrapnel damage), P9_044.jpg (further pieces of small debris in wheat field), P9_046.jpg (business class seats and section of plane skin).
Many of the photos included in the Paris Match map are hitherto unseen. They may contain more pieces of debris away from the main site.
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CloseUp Of Port Side Cockpit Floor Punctures
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veG7dcmp4_g#t=60
Freeze Frame @ 1:06
Trajectory of Shrapnel ?
Anyone see any possibility of second missile ?
Freeze Frame @ 1:06
Trajectory of Shrapnel ?
Anyone see any possibility of second missile ?
There is some discussion ongoing concerning about the visible damage of the cockpit section and how that could be conclusive concerning the inbound path of the SAM and distance of explosion of the warhead or the type of warhead.
The following link has very good information about the BUK1 system and also pictures about the structure of the missile.
9K37/9K37M1/9K317 Buk M1/M2 / SA-11/17 Gadfly/Grizzly / C????????? ???????? ???????? ???????? 9?37/9?317 ??? ?/?1/?2
Few points I like to point out:
The diameter of the mxl without the winglets is about 40cm, with wings about 86 cm(later types 120cm), the length is 5,55 meters. Most uninformed people think the warhead being at the pointy end of the mxl, which is not the case. There the seeker head with the semiactive radar and all the electronics are located in a space of about 1 meter from the tip of the mxl to the warhead behind.The warhead is designed to explode to the forward and outside, thus not only fragmenting the warhead casing to the designed fragmentation pattern, but also the 1 meter long guidance unit in a random way. Therefore the damage pattern might not be consistent with what's expected from the warhead fragments alone.
The part after the warhead will be less effected from the warhead detonation and could therefore be found in identifiable proportions, especially the wings and the hull of the solid rocket propellant. The location to look for such items would be close to the cockpit section, where the explosion most probably was nearby. If somebody would like to trick with evidence, then the first task would be to search for such missile parts and get them out of the way.
There was one picture published where a greenish O-ring gasket like those seen in joints of missile sections could be seen. But it was hard to judge the diameter and i have no knowledge if such sized gaskets are used in the 777.
The following link has very good information about the BUK1 system and also pictures about the structure of the missile.
9K37/9K37M1/9K317 Buk M1/M2 / SA-11/17 Gadfly/Grizzly / C????????? ???????? ???????? ???????? 9?37/9?317 ??? ?/?1/?2
Few points I like to point out:
The diameter of the mxl without the winglets is about 40cm, with wings about 86 cm(later types 120cm), the length is 5,55 meters. Most uninformed people think the warhead being at the pointy end of the mxl, which is not the case. There the seeker head with the semiactive radar and all the electronics are located in a space of about 1 meter from the tip of the mxl to the warhead behind.The warhead is designed to explode to the forward and outside, thus not only fragmenting the warhead casing to the designed fragmentation pattern, but also the 1 meter long guidance unit in a random way. Therefore the damage pattern might not be consistent with what's expected from the warhead fragments alone.
The part after the warhead will be less effected from the warhead detonation and could therefore be found in identifiable proportions, especially the wings and the hull of the solid rocket propellant. The location to look for such items would be close to the cockpit section, where the explosion most probably was nearby. If somebody would like to trick with evidence, then the first task would be to search for such missile parts and get them out of the way.
There was one picture published where a greenish O-ring gasket like those seen in joints of missile sections could be seen. But it was hard to judge the diameter and i have no knowledge if such sized gaskets are used in the 777.
Last edited by RetiredF4; 28th Jul 2014 at 06:07.
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In the video Wantion posted, I noticed the "rocket" portion of the missle continued on after the warhead detonation. As RetiredF4 noted, the warhead design would likely leave the rear portion of the missle somewhat intact. Which means besides the frag damage, there was also a catastrophic impact somewhere from a 40cm steel log going mach 4+. It is likely it passed through and out the other side.
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Retired F4:
Just guessing I am, that the detonation and high energy shrapnel happened close to but not inside the structure of the aircraft near the nose, probably initiated with the missile's proximity fusing. Again, guessing, but I suspect the non warhead parts of the missile flew right on by the jet and careened to earth.
Was once a phellow Phantom phlyer as well
Just guessing I am, that the detonation and high energy shrapnel happened close to but not inside the structure of the aircraft near the nose, probably initiated with the missile's proximity fusing. Again, guessing, but I suspect the non warhead parts of the missile flew right on by the jet and careened to earth.
Was once a phellow Phantom phlyer as well
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The site is now so well documented by video and photographs that I can't see any point in attempting wreckage removal.
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It is true
Locked myself several civ planes with optics during training. Once the radar was on accidentially, but I switched off. Without countermeasures on our (TELAR) radar you see something similar (cone/sector), if you are under radar lock. Actually the optics and image processing capabilities were so good, that you can lock to a person also. Or a rabbit. Can not disclose range for that, classifed info. This was not BUK.
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Driving back to Russia would be insane
BUK TELAR uses 600 kg/h of fuel, when operational. So there is reason to put it on trailer. Especially in areas with compromized maintenance capabilities.
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Shear and tear
Just shear stress on the same line with rivets. This is the intact side and the other side of panel most likely peeled off or taken explosive/implosive forces (no way this could of just pulled apart).
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Mudman . . .
seems to show an fragment penetration from the inside out.
First details from black box
First details from black box leaked? by investigators?
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 black box findings consistent with blast - CBS News
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 black box findings consistent with blast - CBS News
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On ground Al-Jazeera reporter tweets about armed Ukrainian military moving towards crash site right now. https://twitter.com/nazaninemoshiri/...37851275116545
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starboard window of flight deck ?
as evyjet notice below it's mirrored (http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../5/1941507.jpg)
Or probably the upper left corner of that window?
Last edited by OleOle; 28th Jul 2014 at 07:28. Reason: add image source
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To Johnnik:
Yes, it would be interesting to know where and when this video was taken in Ukraine with active BUK radar. Actually Ukrainians must explain this. If there was a mistake, then such deployed systems would allow making mistakes.
But there are some problems with Ukrainian BUK's.
1. Why should Ukrainians shoot an aircraft that has flown through the whole Ukrainian territory and is about leaving Ukrainian airspace at flight level where Drones do not fly from direction that usually only friendly aircrafts come?
2. I doubt if Ukrainian Buks were physically able to shoot that aircraft down at that certain spot, deep in rebel territory. Buk wouldn't have that range for that height.
Instead of rebels whe removed their videos and postings, this particular video is still available. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3MomxNHnUA
Yes, it would be interesting to know where and when this video was taken in Ukraine with active BUK radar. Actually Ukrainians must explain this. If there was a mistake, then such deployed systems would allow making mistakes.
But there are some problems with Ukrainian BUK's.
1. Why should Ukrainians shoot an aircraft that has flown through the whole Ukrainian territory and is about leaving Ukrainian airspace at flight level where Drones do not fly from direction that usually only friendly aircrafts come?
2. I doubt if Ukrainian Buks were physically able to shoot that aircraft down at that certain spot, deep in rebel territory. Buk wouldn't have that range for that height.
Instead of rebels whe removed their videos and postings, this particular video is still available. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3MomxNHnUA