MH17 down near Donetsk
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More shrapnel photos
Heli-phile has found a phenomenal source. Professional news photographer who knows what to shoot and has a great camera. Dozens of shots of DAMAGE. 100% this was shot down.
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/
This guy is THE GUY for this. He is a region expert and even has an entry in the Dutch Wikipedia. Here is my translation:
Jeroen Akkermans started at RTL News in 1989 as a producer, editor and reporter at the special European desk. In 1991 Akkermans became a correspondent in Moscow. His earlier experience was for Super Channel, Reuters TV and European Business Today. In Russia, he made the documentary Hostages of the Gulag.
In 1994 he received the Dick Scherpenzeel Prize for his reports on the war in Chechnya.
From 1996 to 2001 Akkermans was a correspondent in London. <snip boring stuff>
After 2001 Akkermans, based in Berlin, travelled Eastern Europe and the Balkans as a correspondent for Yahoo! News.
On August 12, 2008, his leg was injured during a Russian bombardment in the Georgian town of Gori. Cameraman Stan Storimans was killed in the explosion. In 2009 Akkermans returned to Georgia and made a documentary based on this missile attack. Akkermans, together with the widow of Stan Storimans and Georgian survivors of the attack on Gori sued Russia the Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. [result not given in story]
In 2009 he published a book, There Are Limits, about the euphoria and disappointments of Europe.
In 2011 Akkermans made the documentary Chernobyl, 25 years after the disaster.
He knows what to look for, knows what he's seeing. And must understand the language (even if maybe he can't speak it).
AHHH he didn't just arrive, he's been there for a while, he has albums from various earlier stages of the conflict. Guy's a war correspondent.
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/
This guy is THE GUY for this. He is a region expert and even has an entry in the Dutch Wikipedia. Here is my translation:
Jeroen Akkermans started at RTL News in 1989 as a producer, editor and reporter at the special European desk. In 1991 Akkermans became a correspondent in Moscow. His earlier experience was for Super Channel, Reuters TV and European Business Today. In Russia, he made the documentary Hostages of the Gulag.
In 1994 he received the Dick Scherpenzeel Prize for his reports on the war in Chechnya.
From 1996 to 2001 Akkermans was a correspondent in London. <snip boring stuff>
After 2001 Akkermans, based in Berlin, travelled Eastern Europe and the Balkans as a correspondent for Yahoo! News.
On August 12, 2008, his leg was injured during a Russian bombardment in the Georgian town of Gori. Cameraman Stan Storimans was killed in the explosion. In 2009 Akkermans returned to Georgia and made a documentary based on this missile attack. Akkermans, together with the widow of Stan Storimans and Georgian survivors of the attack on Gori sued Russia the Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. [result not given in story]
In 2009 he published a book, There Are Limits, about the euphoria and disappointments of Europe.
In 2011 Akkermans made the documentary Chernobyl, 25 years after the disaster.
He knows what to look for, knows what he's seeing. And must understand the language (even if maybe he can't speak it).
AHHH he didn't just arrive, he's been there for a while, he has albums from various earlier stages of the conflict. Guy's a war correspondent.
Last edited by KatSLF; 23rd Jul 2014 at 04:17. Reason: adding bio of Akkermans
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This may seem a little far fetched........ Would there be any evidentiary value in examining the effect of a BUK 11 missile warhead being detonated close to the cockpit of a scrapped B777? The Asiana Airlines’ wreck could be put to good use & I'm sure the Ukrainians would be delighted to donate a warhead.
Last edited by HappyAs; 23rd Jul 2014 at 04:24. Reason: tidy up
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I'd been wondering how the SA-11 operators initially acquired the plane with such a narrow beamed radar.
The rest is up to a poor man's C&C - they have somebody at the end of the runway who texts an order for one pizza, extra tomato sauce, for pickup at some time. Once you know what airbase, how many planes, what type, you start scanning the appropriate 120 degree field repeatedly, adjusting the antenna angle so you build an overlapping picture that covers the possible altitudes. If you get the expected number of returns at about the predicted flight time, you lock one up and shoot. If you don't fully understand the system, get too excited, or are bad with geometry and algebra, you can read the altitude and closure rate wrong, not notice the target return is a bit too strong (or mistake that for lower and closer), etc.
Even if you know what you are doing, since the TELAR has to emit to locate the target and then provide illumination for the duration of the engagement, you might be in a hurry as the other side, once they notice your side can reach planes above MANPAD altitudes, may have anti-radiation missiles that can kill you. One of the nice features of an integrated air defense system is that missile launchers and radar emitters don't have to be collocated or even locally manned, making the job of sorting targets less pressured.
Used to get quite defined radar returns on the Airbus around Europe, would be a red segment starting at the aircraft and extending to the edge of the radar display fanning out to around 10 degrees at the edge. I always wondered what the was until one day I flew with a captain who was an ex tornado driver. He was 100% sure that when this happened it meant we were being tracked by a ground radar station! he said that when he was stationed in Germany the radar operators regularly trained by locking onto passing airliners! Now I don't know if any of that is true but it seemed reasonable as this always happened over Germany and on multiple different aircraft. Made me wonder whether you might see this sort of return as the SAM raced towards you, not that you could do anything about it.
As an aside, is it true that all EL AL aircraft are equipped with counter measures?
As an aside, is it true that all EL AL aircraft are equipped with counter measures?
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all EL AL aircraft are equipped with counter measures?
El-Al began installing radar-based, automated flare release countermeasures from June 2004.This caused concerns in some European countries, which proceeded to ban such aircraft from landing at their airports.
Its a system called Flight Guard by Elta Systems Ltd.
Its a system called Flight Guard by Elta Systems Ltd.
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Just for clarity, any "countermeasures" installed on airliners are designed to defend against heat seaking manpads at low altitude, primarily during before/after landing/takeoff phases. They would provide zero protection against radar homing SAMs like the Buk-1m.
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I'm pretty sure it is common for military to practice radar tracking and lock on to civilian traffic even in the west.
As for mistakes being made - read Dan Hampton's "Viper Pilot". On returning to Turkey after the first strike against Mosul, with dozens of aircraft stacked over the base waiting to land the guys saw a SAM launch. One of the Patriots defending the base. Seems someone left it on "auto" and when it saw all the radar returns it launched. Fortunately didn't hit anyone nor did any Weasel strafe the battery.
This for an army with 6 months or so notice to go to war.
As for mistakes being made - read Dan Hampton's "Viper Pilot". On returning to Turkey after the first strike against Mosul, with dozens of aircraft stacked over the base waiting to land the guys saw a SAM launch. One of the Patriots defending the base. Seems someone left it on "auto" and when it saw all the radar returns it launched. Fortunately didn't hit anyone nor did any Weasel strafe the battery.
This for an army with 6 months or so notice to go to war.
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Wishful speculation, but I hope US yesterday back down on blame and guilt would be a pretext for a behind the scenes negotiated confession from someone, “we did it, it was a terrible mistake”. IMHO it wouldn't really otherwise make sense for the US administration to lower the heat on Russia, especially for domestic reasons.
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So much buzz about "black boxes" in media... I do not believe that UK investigators will hear the crew saying that they see Dr. Evil (or Mr. Putin) in a fighter shooting at 777. They will likely see/hear nothing.
Studying debris seems more interesting to make sure what elements actually hit the plane. This could at least prove that it was (or was not) BUK. If not (i.e. no BUK shrapnel found), then the story would begin anew.
There were some discussion here about A2A R-60. This looks very unlikely. The missile is too small and, more important, having a passive IR seeker, it would be heading toward one of the engines. And even if coming from the front it would explode some 5-10 m near the engine, i.e. well away from the 777 cockpit. Then, if the engine were hit, it should not be a fatal damage to the aircraft. Known cases when R-60 was used show that even a (much smaller than 777) planes (F-15 and Israeli Kfir) were able to continue flying, at least did not fall apart. Continuing on the A2A "option", R-27 (by the way, Ukraine manufactured at the "Artyom" plant) is much more serious thing, with semi-active radar-based guidance and a 40 kilo warhead (i.e. 12 times as much as R-60).
Studying debris seems more interesting to make sure what elements actually hit the plane. This could at least prove that it was (or was not) BUK. If not (i.e. no BUK shrapnel found), then the story would begin anew.
There were some discussion here about A2A R-60. This looks very unlikely. The missile is too small and, more important, having a passive IR seeker, it would be heading toward one of the engines. And even if coming from the front it would explode some 5-10 m near the engine, i.e. well away from the 777 cockpit. Then, if the engine were hit, it should not be a fatal damage to the aircraft. Known cases when R-60 was used show that even a (much smaller than 777) planes (F-15 and Israeli Kfir) were able to continue flying, at least did not fall apart. Continuing on the A2A "option", R-27 (by the way, Ukraine manufactured at the "Artyom" plant) is much more serious thing, with semi-active radar-based guidance and a 40 kilo warhead (i.e. 12 times as much as R-60).
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Would be very surprised if chaff/flares were in El Al, can you imagine the mayhem of an accidental discharge on the apron...., can you chaff this type of radar missile? Thought it was only the low level stuff? I heard a few years back in Muscat Oman, a C17 was coming in and they had forgotten to disarm the auto chaff/flare system, she was firing off flares on final every time the SSR painted her. Those living below not happy campers!
Trouble with an airliner at altitude, it's a drum tight aluminium balloon, one good jab with a sharp object.....
Trouble with an airliner at altitude, it's a drum tight aluminium balloon, one good jab with a sharp object.....
Last edited by PerAsperaAdAstra; 23rd Jul 2014 at 08:42.
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Suppose you are a rebel, you know you screwed up and you want to cover up.
- Why not dump the whole thing into a river or a lake, or blow it up and dump it? The damn thing is a tracked vehicle so all you have to worry about is not leaving a complete trail if you don't want it found.
- If you really feel you need to take it back (south) to Russia, then Snizne is only some 20 km from the border with Russia. No good road connects advanced gov positions along Russian border near Anvorosiivka, Sverdlovsk and the boonies you need to cross to get to Russia.
- You have a tracked vehicle, you don't even need a road. 20 minutes and you are in Russia.
- Why not dump the whole thing into a river or a lake, or blow it up and dump it? The damn thing is a tracked vehicle so all you have to worry about is not leaving a complete trail if you don't want it found.
- If you really feel you need to take it back (south) to Russia, then Snizne is only some 20 km from the border with Russia. No good road connects advanced gov positions along Russian border near Anvorosiivka, Sverdlovsk and the boonies you need to cross to get to Russia.
- You have a tracked vehicle, you don't even need a road. 20 minutes and you are in Russia.
Snizhne is 20 km from the border with Russia as the crow flies, but that particular part of the border is under firm Ukrainian control. You are not going to have a solid chance of sneaking it through that way. You have to go through one of the separatist-controlled border crossings. The primary one is Krasnodon/Izvaryne, far to the northeast, that's the one that Russia uses to send most of its heavy military equipment to the rebels. There are multiple Youtube videos showing convoys of tanks and other armored equipment heading through Krasnodon. The preferred route seems to be Krasnodon-Luhansk-Donetsk, for whatever reason. (E.g. http://ukraineatwar.********.nl/2014...-vehicles.html)
As to why they have to go through Luhansk instead of going straight for the crossing, that is harder to explain, but there may be reasons. Many roads in the area are passable on paper but not in practice, because of blown bridges & such.
Jeroen Akkermans photos
Wel, I'm sure Mr. Akkermans has a "great camera" as quoted in a previous post. Actually, doesn't everyone these days? And isn't he a photographer? But he also isn't above falsifying his work.
Take a look. In the posted Flickr link there's a photograph of a pair of souvenir clogs which sit remarkably neatly alongside one another. Then follows another version of the same image however alongside the clogs this time there's part of an over-ear headphone. No doubt this was done for scale but however you look at it it's still tampering with the evidence at a crime scene. Trivial - and yes, he's Dutch, but...
Take a look. In the posted Flickr link there's a photograph of a pair of souvenir clogs which sit remarkably neatly alongside one another. Then follows another version of the same image however alongside the clogs this time there's part of an over-ear headphone. No doubt this was done for scale but however you look at it it's still tampering with the evidence at a crime scene. Trivial - and yes, he's Dutch, but...
Last edited by skridlov; 23rd Jul 2014 at 08:52. Reason: edited for accurate quote
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MH17: Malaysia PM Najib's secret deal wins praise for breakthrough
Kudos to the M'sian PM. Pragmatic leadership.
Kudos to the M'sian PM. Pragmatic leadership.
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hamster3null: great stuff sourcing some Kiev'ian activist site as credible evidence of "that's the one that Russia uses to send most of its heavy military equipment to the rebels".
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MH17: Malaysia PM Najib's secret deal wins praise for breakthrough
Kudos to the M'sian PM. Pragmatic leadership.
Kudos to the M'sian PM. Pragmatic leadership.
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it's a drum tight aluminium balloon, one good jab with a sharp object
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"we thought it was parachutes"
I think someone posted this yesterday, but I didn't read it at the time (it's in Italian).
«Così è stato colpito l’aereo» - Corriere.it
Long and short of it is, the writer interviewed a young separatist at the refrigerated-train station , who told him his unit had shot down a plane belonging to Kiev. The soldier was not at the BUK . He was loaded onto a truck and told "we" had just shot down the plane. White objects were seen floating down from it, which they thought were enemy soldiers escaping by parachute. They were driven to the site to capture or fight these enemy.
On arrival they discovered the white falling items were civilians (the first he found was a girl aged about 5) and the luggage was not military equipment. They started opening things to find out for sure. And after that his unit guarded the scene all day and night.
The writer comments on the innocent simplicity of how the story was told, a genuine narrative; the speaker a local resident, 31 year old former coal miner.
This fits with the early videos, the bags opened, the handful of passports, the comments "these are civilians, these are foreigners, who let them fly here?" the officer blessing himself after replacing the toy. Of course officially by then they were denying having such a weapon.
The separatists are going to lose, sooner rather than later. In places where people feel a need to take up arms to get what they see as fair treatment, losing usually puts them in an even worse situation. In 3 or 4 months' an offer full and frank disclosure about MH17 may save a lot of their lives. (Yeah I know there is no death penalty in Ukraine. But there's plenty of easy death).
«Così è stato colpito l’aereo» - Corriere.it
Long and short of it is, the writer interviewed a young separatist at the refrigerated-train station , who told him his unit had shot down a plane belonging to Kiev. The soldier was not at the BUK . He was loaded onto a truck and told "we" had just shot down the plane. White objects were seen floating down from it, which they thought were enemy soldiers escaping by parachute. They were driven to the site to capture or fight these enemy.
On arrival they discovered the white falling items were civilians (the first he found was a girl aged about 5) and the luggage was not military equipment. They started opening things to find out for sure. And after that his unit guarded the scene all day and night.
The writer comments on the innocent simplicity of how the story was told, a genuine narrative; the speaker a local resident, 31 year old former coal miner.
This fits with the early videos, the bags opened, the handful of passports, the comments "these are civilians, these are foreigners, who let them fly here?" the officer blessing himself after replacing the toy. Of course officially by then they were denying having such a weapon.
The separatists are going to lose, sooner rather than later. In places where people feel a need to take up arms to get what they see as fair treatment, losing usually puts them in an even worse situation. In 3 or 4 months' an offer full and frank disclosure about MH17 may save a lot of their lives. (Yeah I know there is no death penalty in Ukraine. But there's plenty of easy death).
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Yeah, granted the "aluminium balloon jab" was a bit simplistic, but I guess I'm just a bit shocked at the degree of breakup of MH17, the "cripple7" is a strong aircraft, the 'Frisco accident demoed that, but I'm trying to make sense of this. Not that degree of breakup would have made any difference to the poor pax. This missile it seems, tracks to a predicted intercept point, so it makes sense it hit the cockpit area as evidence suggests so far at this early stage. A large hole there and would explosive decompression have broken the cockpit away? Possibly then violent pitch up/pitch down causing the wings to fail and that would probably do it.
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This airframe was blown apart in the air and smashed into the ground across a wide area.
How can cutting any parts lying on the ground be classed as "destroying the evidence"?
It looks like the aircraft was downed by a group using weapons supplied by Russia. Do we now hold the US responsible for deaths caused by Isreal using weapons supplied by the US?
How can cutting any parts lying on the ground be classed as "destroying the evidence"?
It looks like the aircraft was downed by a group using weapons supplied by Russia. Do we now hold the US responsible for deaths caused by Isreal using weapons supplied by the US?
