MH17 down near Donetsk
Originally Posted by thing
I fly SIA Heathrow-Changi a couple of times a year and the route takes you straight over the top of Afghansitan and has done since the Afghan business started. It's always been a bit of a bum clencher for me.
thing, no need to clench at all. Insurgents in Afghanistan and Iraq (post-2003) have been armed with nothing more potent than shoulder-launched heat-seeking missiles. Even the most modern of these can't get anywhere near FL300. There is no risk to traffic overflying Afghanistan in the cruise (different story if you're landing though!). No-one, not even the CIA, Soviets or Iranians has been stupid enough to give anything vaguely potent to the mujahideen or the Taliban, because they know they would have absolutely no control over it. The same is true of most other 'insurgency'-type conflict areas; if the only threat is the shoulder-launched missile then overflight is nothing to be unduly worried about.
The Ukraine scenario is another matter entirely - 3 separate parties, all armed with high-performance radar-guided SAMs with capability up to and above FL400. Given that these SAMs have been used on multiple occasions in recent days, there should have been much greater circumspection from airlines about flying through the area.
Another point to consider is that a shoulder-launched missile operator has to see his target before firing. Even an irregular fighter would recognize the difference between a contrailing airliner way up high, and a military jet manoeuvering in the middle airspace, and they are not so stupid as to waste precious missiles on airliners, which in any case would be of negative strategic value to them. In contrast, the radar SAM operator aims his missile at a blip on his screen, and if he's not interrogating Mode 3, there would be no evident difference between an airliner cruising at FL330 and a lower-altitude target such as a ground attack aircraft or a military transport. It's this that makes radar SAM operation such a demanding and specialized discipline, and heck, even the Americans get it wrong from time to time - let alone irregular troops of unknown training.
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Eurocontrol statement: (excerpt)
MH 17 - Ukraine | Eurocontrol
According to our information, the aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 (approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 feet) when it disappeared from the radar. This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying.
Since the crash, the Ukrainian authorities have informed EUROCONTROL of the closure of routes from the ground to unlimited in Eastern Ukraine (Dnipropetrovsk Flight Information Region). All flight plans that are filed using these routes are now being rejected by EUROCONTROL. The routes will remain closed until further notice.
Since the crash, the Ukrainian authorities have informed EUROCONTROL of the closure of routes from the ground to unlimited in Eastern Ukraine (Dnipropetrovsk Flight Information Region). All flight plans that are filed using these routes are now being rejected by EUROCONTROL. The routes will remain closed until further notice.
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I would hate to be the guy who pulled the trigger on that SAM. Shooting down a civilian airliner with Europeans/North Americans on board makes zero sense politically, and that applies to "Russian Separatists" as well as Putin. I predict the blame game will go back and forth with Russia accusing Ukraine.
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*U.S. Intelligence Agencies Confirm Surface-to-Air Missile Fired at Malaysian Airliner: Officials
*Intelligence Detected Surface Missile Launch, Tracked Explosion of Plane, Official Says
*Intelligence Community Divided Over Whether Missile From Russia or E. Ukraine, Official Says.
WSJ Online.
Nothing further heard or confirmed as yet.
*Intelligence Detected Surface Missile Launch, Tracked Explosion of Plane, Official Says
*Intelligence Community Divided Over Whether Missile From Russia or E. Ukraine, Official Says.
WSJ Online.
Nothing further heard or confirmed as yet.
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"Intercepted phone conversations"
Reuters and the Guardian linking to YouTube of alleged intercepted convos among rebels discussing the incident. In Russian.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g
Last edited by 5000 metres; 17th Jul 2014 at 20:37. Reason: Cleaned up URL
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I see the Flightradar24 site is unavailable. Any connection, I wonder?
"
According to our information, the aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 (approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 feet) when it disappeared from the radar. This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying.
Given the fact at least 23 US citizens were killed as a direct result of a conscious decision to route over this area, a phalanx of exceedingly well versed corporate culpability lawyers will have a field day with this one, to the extent it might very well bankrupt Malaysian Airlines. And I, for one, honestly hope it does, for the single reason of giving every other airline such a scare, they might actually live up their mantra of 'safety first and above all else'. Those of us who've been in the industry long enough, knows just how hollow that rings when put up against the might of financial interests.
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Chilling post by TC Ukraine from just over a month ago....
14th Jun 2014, 22:06 #6 (permalink) TC_Ukraine
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Ukrainian officials should close whole airspace over eastern part. now is closes up to fl260. Russian terrorists can easily hit passenger a/c.
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Ukrainian officials should close whole airspace over eastern part. now is closes up to fl260. Russian terrorists can easily hit passenger a/c.
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WIKIPEDIA :
People on board by nationality[17]
Nationality Number
Netherlands 143
Malaysia 37
Australia 27
United States 23
Indonesia 12
United Kingdom 6
France 6
Germany 4 
Belgium 3
Canada 1 Unknown 35
Total 295
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The Buk-missile goes to at least 72,000'
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_m...tional_service
See Jane's
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_m...tional_service
See Jane's
Last edited by Severe Clear; 17th Jul 2014 at 21:14. Reason: Source
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Of course it's too early to attribute blame.
But surely the sighting by an AP journalist of a Buk SAM system in rebel hands in the area today, the announcement by Itar-Tass some days ago that the rebels had a Buk system, the claim by the rebels (since deleted) they had a Buk system and the claim by the rebels they had shot down an AN26 at the same time the MH flight was downed are pointers towards something.....?
Or not.....
But surely the sighting by an AP journalist of a Buk SAM system in rebel hands in the area today, the announcement by Itar-Tass some days ago that the rebels had a Buk system, the claim by the rebels (since deleted) they had a Buk system and the claim by the rebels they had shot down an AN26 at the same time the MH flight was downed are pointers towards something.....?
Or not.....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Once the aircraft loses power and aerodynamic properties it will fall like the proverbial. A gravity bomb would travel about 5 miles. In this case I would expect debris to travel only 3-4 miles.
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2 5000:
On tape the rebels speak russian with east-ukrainian (local) accent. It seems the rebels expected to see the debris from military airplane, but what they've got - only civil things...
On tape the rebels speak russian with east-ukrainian (local) accent. It seems the rebels expected to see the debris from military airplane, but what they've got - only civil things...
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Fox News video. Someone on ground happened to have a video camera and happened to be pointed towards crash site (a portion of country side with nothing of other interest- they were not taking pictures of Mickey Mouse and accidently captured the crash) prior to impact and continued filming after impact
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from ABC news
" Speaking in Detroit, Vice President Joe Biden said the plane had "been shot down, not an accident. Blown out of the sky."
"We see reports that there may have been American citizens on board," he added. "Obviously, that’s our first concern. We’re working every minute to try to confirm those reports as I speak."
Malaysia Airlines Plane Brought Down by Missile in Ukraine: US Official
Jul 17, 2014, 4:50 PM ET
By COLLEEN CURRY and LUIS MARTINEZ
Luis Martinez More from Luis »
Producer
Colleen Curry More from Colleen »
Colleen Curry
Reporter
via Good Morning America
"We see reports that there may have been American citizens on board," he added. "Obviously, that’s our first concern. We’re working every minute to try to confirm those reports as I speak."
Malaysia Airlines Plane Brought Down by Missile in Ukraine: US Official
Jul 17, 2014, 4:50 PM ET
By COLLEEN CURRY and LUIS MARTINEZ
Luis Martinez More from Luis »
Producer
Colleen Curry More from Colleen »
Colleen Curry
Reporter
via Good Morning America
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Here's a clip of the Antonov 26 being shot down on July 14.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bb2_1405337959
Anyone have any observations? Looks too high for the MANPADS we know they had, but I could easily be wrong. Also, again it looks like the plane was quite high (you can't see it initially, but there is flame on the way down).
Just thought I'd throw it into the mix since this is corroborated footage.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bb2_1405337959
Anyone have any observations? Looks too high for the MANPADS we know they had, but I could easily be wrong. Also, again it looks like the plane was quite high (you can't see it initially, but there is flame on the way down).
Just thought I'd throw it into the mix since this is corroborated footage.
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On cleared overflight heights
240 had been considered safe. Increasing this to 320 - ie 30% - was probably a safe margin. Overlying at 330 was 'safe' as you don't add safety margins to safety margins. OK, they were wrong, but legally the airline was not to blame.
240 had been considered safe. Increasing this to 320 - ie 30% - was probably a safe margin. Overlying at 330 was 'safe' as you don't add safety margins to safety margins. OK, they were wrong, but legally the airline was not to blame.