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MH17 down near Donetsk

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MH17 down near Donetsk

Old 5th Aug 2014, 18:13
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In this case, if the missile was approaching from directly below (or above) and fused at the side of the cockpit, then, yes, that looks a bit late.

On the other hand, if it is approaching from the front, maybe slightly to one side, it could be exactly as designed/expected. Depends on which part of the a/c the fuse will "see". It may be the wing box and/or engine fan that is the biggest return or centre of it. Fuse distance seems most often quoted as 17m, although I have seen other numbers (large radius zone, this is a big warhead). By my reckoning, approaching from front slightly to one side, 17m from wing box / engine on a 777 would put you right about the cockpit window..."
The proximity fuse in a missile like Buk is "side looking" rather, than "front looking" (probably at an angle of about 60deg from missile axis). It is designed to detonate when it passes close to target, there is no point to detonate ahead of a typical aircraft target. The speed of shrapnels from the warhead is much higher than closure speed of the missile/target, so the warhead doesn't work like a "shotgun shot". It just explodes passing close to target and the shrapnels are thrown to the sides fast enough to hit it (shrapnel is several times faster than the missile)

So if the missile was going head-on horizontally or from above with slight side offset, then the warhead detonated as soon as the cockpit came into FOV of side-looking proximity fuse antennas. And looking at the cockpit damage, it was only few meters, so most of the shrapnel was absorbed by front part of the hull with very high fragment density. The spread pattern of warhead shrapnels is not omnidirectional, almost all of the fragments are directed to the sides. Nearly all other plane parts were outside of the shrapnel kill-zone, only one wing and it's engine could get some.

Detonating a bit ahead of target would be good only against really fast target kile ballistic missile or anti-radiation missile, where speed of target/missile is comparable to speed of shrapnels from warhead.

Last edited by amizaur; 5th Aug 2014 at 20:04.
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 20:46
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The operating principle of proximity fuse radars is to detonate the warhead at the point of closest approach. Once the measured range stops decreasing and instead increases - kaboom.
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Old 5th Aug 2014, 22:30
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The operating principle of proximity fuses is that they detonate the warhead in proximity of the target.

Some proximity fuses measure distance to target and can detect the moment of closest approach. Such method is used in torpedo proximity fuses and especially in naval mines, but is not usually needed or practical in missiles.

The proximity fuse of a a Sidewinder missile project narrow beams of [email protected] light perpendicular to the flight of the missile. If any of the beams strikes the target it is reflected back to the missile where detectors sense it and detonate the warhead. There is no "measuring the range" at all, abd it is not needed - when a target is detected to the side of the missile then it's probably as close as it could be and is is good place to detonate the warhead.

Radar proximity fuses work on similar principle (beams of radio energy projected to the sides, perpendicular to misile or at an angle, to front-side) but they can have a predetermined maximum range at which the fuse can detonate. If the target is let's say closer than 17m the fuse would detonate warhead.

Usually there is no need to determine the "point of closesd approach" because the fuse anyway can detect a target ONLY to the side. So only when it passes by. And then in 95% of cases target is already as close as it can be (passing by) and the warhead (which is also designed to throw shrapnels to the sides) should be detonated NOW.

Radar fuse COULD measure range to target and detect optimal point for detonation, but this would be rarely usefull at all.
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 08:57
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Between the sudden decompression and the blast wave of the warhead detonation, it was instant for everybody.
I suspect that a blast wave would instantly be dissipated by opposite explosive decompression and fast moving slip stream. Decompression at FL330 would not kill healthy people instantly. Occupants not directly hit by shrapnel or airframe parts during the in-flight break up would become unconscious from lack of oxygen and the freezing air blast. But when descending through lower altitude and warmer air, (FL100) surviving occupants would likely regain consciousness.
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 09:16
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The counter to radar and also [email protected] is a jammer that initiates the explosive train too early.

BAE Systems are now trying to drum up interest in civil aviation for military grade counter measures.

Not cheap and not effective if not kept up to date. Obviously constantly updating the jammer capability will be an ongoing cost for the operator.

IR missile jammers are of course in use by certain airlines and by certain military operators.

To actually decoy the missile is a whole different ball game as you have to counter the tracker or guidance links and well as active radar seekers.
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 13:09
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Sudden decompression

Re: Glueball comment on quote: "Between the sudden decompression and the blast wave of the warhead detonation, it was instant for everybody."




An alternative and possibly more realistic description is given by Dr. Charles Wetli, the Suffolk County medical examiner in charge of autopsies for TW800.

ME: Flight 800 Injuries Reveal Sudden, Violent Deaths for Passengers

Maybe some small comfort for the relatives of MH17.
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 15:18
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Victims Bodies Land In Malaysia

The first remains of the victims have landed in Kuala Lumpur.
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 17:55
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Does anyone know if this particular 777 had pax O2 supplies as bottles or generators??
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 18:29
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It should be an easy matter to establish the type of rocket used to down it - some of the shrapnel must be still stuck in the bodies of the passengers, plus the holes in the wing look pretty unique too - looks like they were made by triangular shaped projectiles.

So, what's taking so long?
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 18:41
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Originally Posted by vovachan View Post

So, what's taking so long?
AMSTERDAM – The Dutch Safety Board says its preliminary report into the cause of the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 disaster will likely not be released until sometime in September.
Dutch Safety Board says preliminary report on Ukraine plane disaster delayed for weeks | Fox News
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 21:07
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What's taking so long?

Well it was definitely brought down by a Buk, or it wasn't.

If it wasn't then it will take time to determine what did.

If it was then the issue becomes WHO and not WHAT.

Now we all have our favourite theory but at Government level you have to be certain before naming names.
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 21:34
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Search for MH17 victims 'too dangerous' to continue - World - NZ Herald News
The Netherlands' prime minister has halted the search for remains of victims of the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 disaster in Ukraine, saying it is too dangerous to continue... found remains of only a few victims, despite expectations it might find as many as 80.

Rutte said that it now appears "fortunately that more was done after the disaster than we thought until now." Local Ukrainian authorities carried out "an intensive search in the area with 800 volunteers, and there were many bodies recovered in those (first) days," he said.
Apologies to the locals? Even CFIT on a pristine mountainside (Erebus, TE901) many bodies not found.
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Old 7th Aug 2014, 04:59
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Rutte said that it now appears "fortunately that more was done after the disaster than we thought until now." Local Ukrainian authorities carried out "an intensive search in the area with 800 volunteers, and there were many bodies recovered in those (first) days," he said.
The local volunteers deserve recognition for their humanitarian efforts, they completed a comprehensive search in a conflict zone, meanwhile being accused by Oz PM of disrespect, looting, trampling and tampering.
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Old 7th Aug 2014, 07:17
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CVR transcript

Any idea how long to some or all of the CVR transcript is released - why hasn't it been released already?Seems to be taking a very long time!
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Old 7th Aug 2014, 08:39
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Does anyone know if this particular 777 had pax O2 supplies as bottles or generators??
The pictures of the wreakage show passenger service units with chemical oxygen generators.
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Old 7th Aug 2014, 10:33
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Any idea how long to some or all of the CVR transcript is released - why hasn't it been released already?Seems to be taking a very long time!
Transcripts aren't published separately, if at all. We'll likely have to wait for an interim report.

Besides, I'm guessing that all the CVR will contain is bog standard conversation cut short by the sound of something hitting the cockpit, a momentary rush of air and the beginnings of the break up. Then the CVR will go dead.

If we are "lucky" (for want of a better expression!) there might be a comment by either of the pilots of something coming toward them.
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Old 7th Aug 2014, 11:11
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I am looking forward for any transcript from CVR and communication with ATC because as long there is an information vacuum it makes a free space for wild speculation and conspiracy theorists who spread propaganda on "how Ukrainian ATC intentionally locked MH17 into war zone... etc."

As the facts will be more and more available this kind of noise will abate.

As an old man said - when truth becomes available the lies inevitably die.
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Old 7th Aug 2014, 14:25
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Originally Posted by Volume View Post
The pictures of the wreakage show passenger service units with chemical oxygen generators.

OK thanks for that info. I was trying to visulise another reason for the amount of thermal damage on those front fus fragments but I guess it comes back to the closeness of the warhead/missile motor when it detonated...
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Old 7th Aug 2014, 21:21
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Originally Posted by GobonaStick View Post
SU2074 was 150km west at the time, way outside of missile range and flying in a completely different direction.
Well the SBU story is the rebels were mistaken. They were to set up the BUK to the west of Donetsk, but went to the east instead.
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Old 7th Aug 2014, 22:23
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there are some youtube videos of mh17 flight from fr24. SU2074 is there. their paths crossed at same time. Version is more probable, than russian version that ukrainian fighters confused mh17 with Putin's aircraft.
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