Spain sees the light, France next ?
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Wouldn't it be nice
If the UK CAA recommended to the Home Office that UK citizens should not travel by Air France due to reduced safety levels caused by their pilots not speaking English on the R/T.
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Never ending debate.
As some posters have already mentioned, and Vilters apparently fails to understand, is that pilots talking to ATC in their native language will have a lower probability of misunderstanding - this increases flight safety.
On the other hand, and obviously, those who do not understand the local language will lose situational awareness - this decreases flight safety.
So where does the balance between this increase and decrease in flight safety end up? Positive or negative? No one can pretend to know for sure, as it depends on the situations.
In my opinion, in controlled airspace the use of local language is beneficial (unless the local English proficiency level is excellent) while in uncontrolled airspace, local pilots should make an effort to switch to English whenever a pilot gets on the frequency in English. At least for those in his vicinity.
As some posters have already mentioned, and Vilters apparently fails to understand, is that pilots talking to ATC in their native language will have a lower probability of misunderstanding - this increases flight safety.
On the other hand, and obviously, those who do not understand the local language will lose situational awareness - this decreases flight safety.
So where does the balance between this increase and decrease in flight safety end up? Positive or negative? No one can pretend to know for sure, as it depends on the situations.
In my opinion, in controlled airspace the use of local language is beneficial (unless the local English proficiency level is excellent) while in uncontrolled airspace, local pilots should make an effort to switch to English whenever a pilot gets on the frequency in English. At least for those in his vicinity.
To all of you who claim only English should be used in aviation communications... well I think you are smoking some really good stuff!
Give me an example of any accidents, incidents or of a near miss where a local language was directly responsible for such an event and I don't mean a Spanish person talking in a bad English... I mean a Spanish controller talking in Spanish to a Spanish pilot and the English pilot not understanding what was said in Spanish became involved in an incident or accident.
To the poster who claims all speeches are done in English by politicians at major event... What are you talking about? Are you on crack?
Most of the time when I see meetings between heads of states they either have a translator with them or an ear piece for simultaneous translation or they pretend to know was is being said because they have seen a translated version of that speech given to them ahead of time.
Look no further than the UN in NYC when they gather in the main hall for sessions... All of them have ear pieces to get the translation of the speech being made.
You "English" only guys better get off your high horses because it will never happen and it shouldn't happen.
My $0.02.
Give me an example of any accidents, incidents or of a near miss where a local language was directly responsible for such an event and I don't mean a Spanish person talking in a bad English... I mean a Spanish controller talking in Spanish to a Spanish pilot and the English pilot not understanding what was said in Spanish became involved in an incident or accident.
To the poster who claims all speeches are done in English by politicians at major event... What are you talking about? Are you on crack?
Most of the time when I see meetings between heads of states they either have a translator with them or an ear piece for simultaneous translation or they pretend to know was is being said because they have seen a translated version of that speech given to them ahead of time.
Look no further than the UN in NYC when they gather in the main hall for sessions... All of them have ear pieces to get the translation of the speech being made.
You "English" only guys better get off your high horses because it will never happen and it shouldn't happen.
My $0.02.
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Can they do it ?
The problem with most anglo-saxons pilots is not that they don't want to learn a foreign language - it's that they cannot...
As a result, many airlines are flooded with semi-illiterate types from Australia, NZ or US, who nevertheless enjoy an unfair advantage, that they speak THE language. Commonly enough, they didn't find jobs in their national carriers, where they had to suffer more serious competition from their fellow nationals. They would of course have been TOTALLY UNABLE to become pilots having to go through foreign language flight training, be it italian, french, spanish or czech..
It's an extra burden all of us from various countries had to go through, at least to the benefit of our intellectual abilities. But when you are monolingual, you cannot figure that.
Now regarding ATC issues, I have been flying regionals then widebodies for years all over the world, and no, those places where they mix with their languages are not such an issue - anyway, are you really listening to the rest of the R/T ?
I think it's just because anglo-saxons find it annoying - I know it ! - when they have people in the vicinity conversing in another language , probably because it does remind them that there is a life outside, of which they cannot grasp anything, so sad...
I hope to be literate in russian, italian, german and french by the way...
As a result, many airlines are flooded with semi-illiterate types from Australia, NZ or US, who nevertheless enjoy an unfair advantage, that they speak THE language. Commonly enough, they didn't find jobs in their national carriers, where they had to suffer more serious competition from their fellow nationals. They would of course have been TOTALLY UNABLE to become pilots having to go through foreign language flight training, be it italian, french, spanish or czech..
It's an extra burden all of us from various countries had to go through, at least to the benefit of our intellectual abilities. But when you are monolingual, you cannot figure that.
Now regarding ATC issues, I have been flying regionals then widebodies for years all over the world, and no, those places where they mix with their languages are not such an issue - anyway, are you really listening to the rest of the R/T ?
I think it's just because anglo-saxons find it annoying - I know it ! - when they have people in the vicinity conversing in another language , probably because it does remind them that there is a life outside, of which they cannot grasp anything, so sad...
I hope to be literate in russian, italian, german and french by the way...
Last edited by Reinhardt; 13th Jun 2014 at 14:07. Reason: an horrible spelling mistake
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Give me an example of any accidents, incidents or of a near miss where a local language was directly responsible for such an event...
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Give me an example of any accidents, incidents or of a near miss where a local language was directly responsible for such an event
Reinhardt for such a clearly intelligent individual such as yourself I find it remarkable that you fail to grasp such a simple concept that no matter what language you choose for international R/T communications, there will be some who have the advantage that it is their native language. So which language do we choose then, maybe Klingon?
Maybe then we would also be spared your posts generalising and stereotyping numerous nationalities in one go, presumably because of some form of racism, which incidentally is what you accuse THEM of. Talk about hypocrisy.
Maybe then we would also be spared your posts generalising and stereotyping numerous nationalities in one go, presumably because of some form of racism, which incidentally is what you accuse THEM of. Talk about hypocrisy.
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Jet Jockey A4 and Reinhardt, you were spot on !
Plastic 787, by accusing people you disagree with of racism, it's easy answer and you just followed the well-used path of political correctness, so common in those countries the issue is all about
Plastic 787, by accusing people you disagree with of racism, it's easy answer and you just followed the well-used path of political correctness, so common in those countries the issue is all about
So someone can make a statement that implies the reason English speaking pilots don't like others using other languages is because basically they don't like "Johnny foreigner" - CLEARLY IMPLYING racism - but then in the same breath totally patronises various nationalities (funnily enough all English speaking ones) and talks about them in a disparaging manner yet nobody should be allowed to rightfully call that out as racism itself and how hypocritical it is? Bravo sir.
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787 (?) you missed the point.
Just that some individuals, from those countries we all know, will often have very average background and abilities, and then by the virtue of having THE language as their mother tongue, they miraculously look brilliant and once again, enjoy therefore an unfair - although real - advantage.
And by the way many of those foreigners will speak and write a better english than those "native" speakers...
Just that some individuals, from those countries we all know, will often have very average background and abilities, and then by the virtue of having THE language as their mother tongue, they miraculously look brilliant and once again, enjoy therefore an unfair - although real - advantage.
And by the way many of those foreigners will speak and write a better english than those "native" speakers...
Reinhardt again that is going to happen no matter what language you choose. I don't care what language is chosen as the language of international R/T communications, regardless of whether it is English, French, Spanish, Chinese, Malay, Esperanto or Klingon, it should be the ONLY one spoken.
I think I clearly grasped your point when you clearly generalised that Anglo Saxons can't speak other languages and therefore get annoyed when others speak in a language they can't grasp...
I think I clearly grasped your point when you clearly generalised that Anglo Saxons can't speak other languages and therefore get annoyed when others speak in a language they can't grasp...
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I truly hope "Lockheed Blackbird" is joking, because the ICAO ELP is about gaining level 4 or more ... IN ENGLISH! If he likes French language that much, why did he choose an English name to post? Should be called "L'oiseau noir"...
Local/National language is fine in flying clubs and uncontrolled airspace. Any commercial flight should be operated in English. Period. How come the Dutch, the Swiss (They have at least 3 national languages and none of them is English), Danish, Swedish, Austrians, etc, can all use English for professional pilots, and France or Spain wouldn't? It is just resistance to change and to adapt. If the french resist this so much, maybe they do not deserve the ELP level 4 or 5 that they have on their license. Should not be a problem if they really had the ELP they claim?
Local/National language is fine in flying clubs and uncontrolled airspace. Any commercial flight should be operated in English. Period. How come the Dutch, the Swiss (They have at least 3 national languages and none of them is English), Danish, Swedish, Austrians, etc, can all use English for professional pilots, and France or Spain wouldn't? It is just resistance to change and to adapt. If the french resist this so much, maybe they do not deserve the ELP level 4 or 5 that they have on their license. Should not be a problem if they really had the ELP they claim?
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The problem with most anglo-saxons pilots is not that they don't want to learn a foreign language - it's that they cannot...
But in my opinion, it is not that we cannot learn a foreign language, as we certainly can, it is a question of just what language or more accurately, languages.
I have flown Central and South American, Spanish, so that would be easy as every country speaks Spanish, Except for Brazil, oops, Portuguese. So now that is three languages, English, Spanish and Portuguese and I’ve not crossed any oceans.
Now I’ve also flown in the Philippines, China, Singapore, Viet Nam (well after the war), Dubai, India, etc. and I’ve not even gotten to Turkey, Greece and the rest of ‘Europe’. So how many languages is that? I’ve lost count.
No, there can be only one language used in ATC communication by both pilots and controllers and that language is English.
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Lockheed Blackbird:
Riiiiight...
ICAO Language Proficiency Requirements (LPRs) - English For Aviation
May i remind you that french is the official aeronautic language.
ICAO Language Proficiency Requirements (LPRs) - English For Aviation
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Just my 2c worth here as a monolingual pilot who was once told never to take a French class ever again but can order a beer in 7 languages. 
When flying for my operator, I fully expect that, per the internationally accepted standards, that I will be able to communicate in English no matter where I am dispatched to within controlled airspace. With that being said, I also understand that there will be the possibility for local language(s) on frequency. I expect, however, that I will be provided any pertinent information from those local conversations - as someone pointed out, whether an aircraft cleared the runway I am about to land on. Furthermore, I fully expect that any emergency transmission I make will be understood by every pilot.
Now, were I to privately trek off into some Swiss valley (as another poster alluded to), I would think it best to do some due diligence and find out if they actually spoke English locally. If they did not, I would at least try my best to figure out the basic lingo for the area.
The fact that English and French are the only two "official" languages of aviation are a happy coincidence to aviation history. Had China figured out how to fly 2,000 years ago or had Germany won the war, it would be a far different story. In any event, it benefits some and not others.
When flying for my operator, I fully expect that, per the internationally accepted standards, that I will be able to communicate in English no matter where I am dispatched to within controlled airspace. With that being said, I also understand that there will be the possibility for local language(s) on frequency. I expect, however, that I will be provided any pertinent information from those local conversations - as someone pointed out, whether an aircraft cleared the runway I am about to land on. Furthermore, I fully expect that any emergency transmission I make will be understood by every pilot.
Now, were I to privately trek off into some Swiss valley (as another poster alluded to), I would think it best to do some due diligence and find out if they actually spoke English locally. If they did not, I would at least try my best to figure out the basic lingo for the area.
The fact that English and French are the only two "official" languages of aviation are a happy coincidence to aviation history. Had China figured out how to fly 2,000 years ago or had Germany won the war, it would be a far different story. In any event, it benefits some and not others.
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Reinhardt and his ilk are living in a little world of their own if they have not yet realised that the real world is rapidly becoming monolingual or at least national languages becoming secondary. The language of communication is English for good or ill and no arrogant and insulting statements will change that. The youth of today communicate across the globe via social media etc in a single language and in a few generations most educated people in all countries will use English as a first language.
+TSRA = spot on and thank you for your reasonable attitude. A shame not more English-only speaking pilots are prepared to make an effort to share the burden of increasing flight safety.
As I implied in an earlier post, I would like to see simple rules adopted by ICAO.
1. In controlled airspace, English and local language should be equally acceptable - the onus being on ATC to be of sufficient linguistic competence to ensure separation. Aircrew should be encouraged to contribute to flight safety by gaining ICAO linguistic competence in languages other than English.
2. In uncontrolled airspace, only local language should be acceptable. If you do not have equivalent of level 4 competence in the local language then don't venture into uncontrolled airspace!
As I implied in an earlier post, I would like to see simple rules adopted by ICAO.
1. In controlled airspace, English and local language should be equally acceptable - the onus being on ATC to be of sufficient linguistic competence to ensure separation. Aircrew should be encouraged to contribute to flight safety by gaining ICAO linguistic competence in languages other than English.
2. In uncontrolled airspace, only local language should be acceptable. If you do not have equivalent of level 4 competence in the local language then don't venture into uncontrolled airspace!
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Language in aviation
Did a Google and Bing search on "Official Aeronautic Language" and did not come up with anything other than English EXCEPT for a passenger on an Air France flight who was told they could not sit in an exit row unless fluent in French as FRENCH was the official language of aviation.
After 40 years flying for airlines (35 on international routes) would have to support a common language in aviation. I admire those who have made the effort (a very LARGE effort) to become fluent in English so as to pursue their passion for aviation. For those of us who were fortunate to have English as their mother tongue, it took a large burden off our shoulders and our transition to professional pilots much simpler. Our only linguistic obligation was to learn and use STANDARD aviation phraseology.
Canada went through the dilemma of muti-lingual communications many years ago (mid 70s I believe) when they changed their air regulation to permit both French and English to be spoken in Quebec. This generated a large controversy in the aviation community, but politics demanded that the change be adopted. It should be noted that there has not been a language related aviation incident (as far as I know) in Quebec airspace.
Personally, I believe that there is a degradation to safety when one is unable to understand local or enroute communications. This, unfortunately, is the reality of our environment at this time. I applaud Spain to taking a stand on the issue and would support this initiative in other countries. As a unilingual pilot, however, it appears to be self-serving. This initiative needs international support from the aviation communities in those countries that do NOT have English as their primary language.
France has played a big part in the history of aviation. Still think the Bleriot was one of the most avant-garde designs of the time. French was recognised as the "civilised" language many years ago and the common language of European diplomats. A battle or two brought English to the dominant global position is has today. English is currently the official language of aviation and as such, should be promoted as the common language in environments where international aviators operate.
After 40 years flying for airlines (35 on international routes) would have to support a common language in aviation. I admire those who have made the effort (a very LARGE effort) to become fluent in English so as to pursue their passion for aviation. For those of us who were fortunate to have English as their mother tongue, it took a large burden off our shoulders and our transition to professional pilots much simpler. Our only linguistic obligation was to learn and use STANDARD aviation phraseology.
Canada went through the dilemma of muti-lingual communications many years ago (mid 70s I believe) when they changed their air regulation to permit both French and English to be spoken in Quebec. This generated a large controversy in the aviation community, but politics demanded that the change be adopted. It should be noted that there has not been a language related aviation incident (as far as I know) in Quebec airspace.
Personally, I believe that there is a degradation to safety when one is unable to understand local or enroute communications. This, unfortunately, is the reality of our environment at this time. I applaud Spain to taking a stand on the issue and would support this initiative in other countries. As a unilingual pilot, however, it appears to be self-serving. This initiative needs international support from the aviation communities in those countries that do NOT have English as their primary language.
France has played a big part in the history of aviation. Still think the Bleriot was one of the most avant-garde designs of the time. French was recognised as the "civilised" language many years ago and the common language of European diplomats. A battle or two brought English to the dominant global position is has today. English is currently the official language of aviation and as such, should be promoted as the common language in environments where international aviators operate.