Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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Since when did the public have any rights to know ?
If a Gov't has shared what knowledge it has to assist in the finding of the 239 people, then it has done it's job but sharing the knowledge does not include releasing all and sundry to the general public.
I am saying the above from an Australian perspective in relation to JORN etc.
If a Gov't has shared what knowledge it has to assist in the finding of the 239 people, then it has done it's job but sharing the knowledge does not include releasing all and sundry to the general public.
I am saying the above from an Australian perspective in relation to JORN etc.
The interview with Nik Huzlan, Former Chief Pilot with MAS was well worth watching for a lay person like myself...it has answered many of the questions I still couldn't get a handle on until now.
LOST: MH370 - Four Corners
Scroll down to the two smaller screen videos, the main video won't play any more.
LOST: MH370 - Four Corners
Scroll down to the two smaller screen videos, the main video won't play any more.
Susier, Nik's explanation is superb. I shall be sharing the link to that interview with everyone with whom I have discussed this missing plane event. Very understandable for the layman and pilot alike.
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The timing always did look a bit suspicious. They managed to get the Ocean Shield in location just in time to hear the last signals from the pincers. Well away from the location of the previous aerial search area.
I suspect it is very likely some other data was made available to allow this to happen. The nature of this may never be released. It could be a satellite, or could be JORN.
I suspect it is very likely some other data was made available to allow this to happen. The nature of this may never be released. It could be a satellite, or could be JORN.
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The interview with Nik Huzlan, Former Chief Pilot with MAS was well worth watching for a lay person like myself...it has answered many of the questions I still couldn't get a handle on until now.
LOST: MH370 - Four Corners
Scroll down to the two smaller screen videos, the main video won't play any more.
LOST: MH370 - Four Corners
Scroll down to the two smaller screen videos, the main video won't play any more.
I checked you tube prog not there but lots of other 4corners are so hopefully it will be in the near future
The Malaysian minister "seemed" evasive but I think it is reasonable he is allowed to confirmprecise data, interviewer should have asked when he would give her that data. However he kept nervously looking to his left, at some one?
Is it normal for them to remove an episode off their website so early?
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In the interview with Nik Huzlan, Nik is clear that the failure to contact HCM within a fraction of a second of handoff from KUL was the key that whomever was flying did a deliberate action right at that point.
An alternate possibility is that a catastrophe hit right at that instant. Perhaps an oxygen bottle exploded at that moment piercing the hull. Perhaps a fragment took out a cable that fed ACARS, a small lingering fire took 90 seconds to take out the transponder.
Perhaps the Captain was only able to get as far as turning around for an emergency airfield and entering some incorrect numbers that resulted in the two turns and then a fixed magnetic compass course from then on.
The aircraft porpoised in without coming apart, sank without wreckage.
An alternate possibility is that a catastrophe hit right at that instant. Perhaps an oxygen bottle exploded at that moment piercing the hull. Perhaps a fragment took out a cable that fed ACARS, a small lingering fire took 90 seconds to take out the transponder.
Perhaps the Captain was only able to get as far as turning around for an emergency airfield and entering some incorrect numbers that resulted in the two turns and then a fixed magnetic compass course from then on.
The aircraft porpoised in without coming apart, sank without wreckage.
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Third and final attempt
Ok I don't understand why my post is being modded out, maybe it's the link I included that was the problem?
So, here's a sum-up:
Malaysian Minister of Transport says he is ok with the public release of raw data. Says to ask Inmarsat for it.
Australians say they are ok with releasing the raw data. Also point to Inmarsat.
MAS also gives the green light for the public release, also say to ask Inmarsat.
Inmarsat says they are ok with releasing the raw data. But they say they already gave it to Malaysia "at an early stage of the investigation".
The article I linked to, concluded that someone is lying or stalling here.
There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about whether or not the authorities had any obligation to release the raw data.
Now it appears they want to, but nobody can find it? What on earth is going on?
So, here's a sum-up:
Malaysian Minister of Transport says he is ok with the public release of raw data. Says to ask Inmarsat for it.
Australians say they are ok with releasing the raw data. Also point to Inmarsat.
MAS also gives the green light for the public release, also say to ask Inmarsat.
Inmarsat says they are ok with releasing the raw data. But they say they already gave it to Malaysia "at an early stage of the investigation".
The article I linked to, concluded that someone is lying or stalling here.
There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about whether or not the authorities had any obligation to release the raw data.
Now it appears they want to, but nobody can find it? What on earth is going on?
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Ok I don't understand why my post is being modded out, maybe it's the link I included that was the problem?
So, here's a sum-up:
Malaysian Minister of Transport says he is ok with the public release of raw data. Says to ask Inmarsat for it.
Australians say they are ok with releasing the raw data. Also point to Inmarsat.
MAS also gives the green light for the public release, also say to ask Inmarsat.
Inmarsat says they are ok with releasing the raw data. But they say they already gave it to Malaysia "at an early stage of the investigation".
The article I linked to, concluded that someone is lying or stalling here.
There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about whether or not the authorities had any obligation to release the raw data.
Now it appears they want to, but nobody can find it? What on earth is going on?
So, here's a sum-up:
Malaysian Minister of Transport says he is ok with the public release of raw data. Says to ask Inmarsat for it.
Australians say they are ok with releasing the raw data. Also point to Inmarsat.
MAS also gives the green light for the public release, also say to ask Inmarsat.
Inmarsat says they are ok with releasing the raw data. But they say they already gave it to Malaysia "at an early stage of the investigation".
The article I linked to, concluded that someone is lying or stalling here.
There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about whether or not the authorities had any obligation to release the raw data.
Now it appears they want to, but nobody can find it? What on earth is going on?
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Inmarsat Data
I'd tend to agree. The data's there but who ever releases it will be the one to whom all questions go. Inmarsat's done their bit but it has a business to run and its not looking for missing planes.
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heavens 10,700 odd posts into the saga and I think billslugg has made the correct analysis of events.
billslugg has made comments that all the atpl pilots I've spoken to agree with. that is what they think occurred.
billslugg has made comments that all the atpl pilots I've spoken to agree with. that is what they think occurred.
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The Four Corners programme was a complete disappointment. It merely followed the set-in-stone Malaysian Govt line that the pilots purposely took actions that indicate criminal activity.
There was no effort on the part of FC to speak to any aviation tech people, or to investigate the other possibilities such as contraband cargo, on-board fire or explosion.
All in all, the FC investigation was pretty poor, and merely showed up what we all already know - there's simply a lot of incompetence amongst the Malaysian leaders - in the Govt, in the military, and in the aviation arena.
There was no effort on the part of FC to speak to any aviation tech people, or to investigate the other possibilities such as contraband cargo, on-board fire or explosion.
All in all, the FC investigation was pretty poor, and merely showed up what we all already know - there's simply a lot of incompetence amongst the Malaysian leaders - in the Govt, in the military, and in the aviation arena.
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Surely after all these posts we should look a little at old Lady Logic?
Scenario 1) Drastic emergency on board: As said, who as time to re-programme the FMC to follow a bizarre route? Will the a/c systems then allow this to be 'flown'?
Scenario 2) Suicide/political protest: I'm going to crash this aircraft out of desperation/frustration over something. Why drag it out for 7 or more hours and then crash it? What is wrong with a political/emotional R/T message and a high-speed dive into the nearest water?
Scenario 1) Drastic emergency on board: As said, who as time to re-programme the FMC to follow a bizarre route? Will the a/c systems then allow this to be 'flown'?
Scenario 2) Suicide/political protest: I'm going to crash this aircraft out of desperation/frustration over something. Why drag it out for 7 or more hours and then crash it? What is wrong with a political/emotional R/T message and a high-speed dive into the nearest water?
I agree a pure political protest seems unlikely in this scenario although the possibilty there were other plans which went arwy or even that the intention was to try and demonstrate incompetence by dissappearing for good can't be ruled out. (Note the time is not a factor, it's easily possible dissappearing way off course could be part of the planned protest. But under most scenarios, you would expect an attempt to let the world know at some stage. In fact dissappearing may be seen to add to the message if it's believed no one will notice until you send your message. Since it's easy to see the failure to notice will be criticised regardless of if that's fair or would be the same for most governments.)
In the case of pure suicide, if you don't want anyone to know for sure this makes a lot sense. There's still a fair chance the plane will never be found and it would be far greater were it not for INMARSAT data. It's true that the is some doubt over many previous alleged commercial plane pilot suicides but no where near the level of this.
Just viewed the interviews.
Over the top the Malaysian Minister of transport and defence was evasive and very uncomfortable during the whole interview. He wasn't saying anything with substance.
The opposition leader was a surprise. Until now i haven't seen any interview with him and from the media I had the impression he would be a radical fanatic guy. I'm not privy to his real mind, but his answers to the competent questions were all sound and reasonable. Interesting his answers to the role of the military concerning SOPs all over the world concerning air policing and the non adherence in this case. And he did not use the interview for unnecessary political statements. I think the opposition leaders of most european countries would have been more aggressive in an opportunity like this one.
The Chief pilot gave an excellent interview, and his position was and is that it most probably was a deliberate act. Imho he will be the most informed pilot at Malaysia airlines with one of the highest level of technical and procedural understandig to normal MAS operations. He most probably had access to inside information from the beginning and could form his take on the events in an early stage untempered from the media and other discussions. He never evaded a question and all his answers were on the spot.
Bottom line is, the man with the two hats was most nervous, he was evasive, he was hiding and not telling any thing. He is the guy who has responsibility for air transport and air defence matters in Malaysia, and if some standard SOPs are established for a rouge flight than he would be the guy making the necessary calls. We must therefore assume that he was well informed in the early stage of the flight going missing, or he could not be reached and the designated deputy further down the line was not making any decisions.
Caro Meldrum-Hanna and her team did a great job in all three interviews. Until now its the best information on air from Malaysia.
Over the top the Malaysian Minister of transport and defence was evasive and very uncomfortable during the whole interview. He wasn't saying anything with substance.
The opposition leader was a surprise. Until now i haven't seen any interview with him and from the media I had the impression he would be a radical fanatic guy. I'm not privy to his real mind, but his answers to the competent questions were all sound and reasonable. Interesting his answers to the role of the military concerning SOPs all over the world concerning air policing and the non adherence in this case. And he did not use the interview for unnecessary political statements. I think the opposition leaders of most european countries would have been more aggressive in an opportunity like this one.
The Chief pilot gave an excellent interview, and his position was and is that it most probably was a deliberate act. Imho he will be the most informed pilot at Malaysia airlines with one of the highest level of technical and procedural understandig to normal MAS operations. He most probably had access to inside information from the beginning and could form his take on the events in an early stage untempered from the media and other discussions. He never evaded a question and all his answers were on the spot.
Bottom line is, the man with the two hats was most nervous, he was evasive, he was hiding and not telling any thing. He is the guy who has responsibility for air transport and air defence matters in Malaysia, and if some standard SOPs are established for a rouge flight than he would be the guy making the necessary calls. We must therefore assume that he was well informed in the early stage of the flight going missing, or he could not be reached and the designated deputy further down the line was not making any decisions.
Caro Meldrum-Hanna and her team did a great job in all three interviews. Until now its the best information on air from Malaysia.
Last edited by RetiredF4; 20th May 2014 at 09:20.
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MH370 satellite data to be released
Malaysian government and Inmarsat announce details on last signals sent by plane will be made public 'for transparency'
will be interesting to see what the mathematicians make of it
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"will be interesting to see what the mathematicians make of it "
We will have a new round of people wanting to make a name for themselves !!!
"We will have a new round of people wanting to make a name for themselves !!!
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RetiredF4
Possibly the biggest disappointment of Hishamuddin's responses to 4 Corners was his inability or unwillingness to acknowledge that in choosing not to have the military scramble an intercept to the unidentified aircraft showing on primary radar, the opportunity to gather valuable information was lost. Hishamuddin took the tack "What would have been the point? We weren't going to shoot it down - it was civilian".
The point would have been that, the military having been advised that MH 370 was missing, an intercept could have:
A) Identified the aircraft as an MAS 777
B) Possibly identified it as 9M-MRO
C) Possibly identified if a person appeared to be in control on the flight deck
D) Possibly noticed whether there was any evidence of a fire onboard
E) Possibly set a few minds at rest by noticing any sign of a small hull breach or other visible damage accounting for the off course behaviour
Obviously they had no concept of the magnitude of the mystery developing around this flight, however this should really be part of the point of having SOPS in relation to any unidentified aircraft crossing their airspace, as Anwar Ibrahim pointed out. Several key items of the mystery may have been enlightened if the Malaysians had not simply watched the aircraft go by unchallenged.
The point would have been that, the military having been advised that MH 370 was missing, an intercept could have:
A) Identified the aircraft as an MAS 777
B) Possibly identified it as 9M-MRO
C) Possibly identified if a person appeared to be in control on the flight deck
D) Possibly noticed whether there was any evidence of a fire onboard
E) Possibly set a few minds at rest by noticing any sign of a small hull breach or other visible damage accounting for the off course behaviour
Obviously they had no concept of the magnitude of the mystery developing around this flight, however this should really be part of the point of having SOPS in relation to any unidentified aircraft crossing their airspace, as Anwar Ibrahim pointed out. Several key items of the mystery may have been enlightened if the Malaysians had not simply watched the aircraft go by unchallenged.
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Originally Posted by 500N
We will have a new round of people wanting to make a name for themselves !!!
If they rebuff the original versions, they will also have to come up with an answer for the well documented recordings of the detected ULB pings.
In my mind the proof will be found in 5000m + of water to the NW of the #1 Ping detection position, when then the question will be, "How was it done?"
Are the military able to 'escort' an aircraft in this situation, until it eventually comes down?
In the area of responsibility crewed and armed jets are on a special alert state to be airborne within 10, 15, 30 may be 60 minutes after the order is given by the responsible control center to intercept and identify an unidentified aircraft. They normally operate in pairs. The initial direction and altitude informations lead the interceptors within the range of the onboard radar system, and with the help of that the jets will maneuver within visual range to identify the type of aircraft, its altitude speed and track. With means of communications including visual signals the crew tries to get the attention of the rouge aircraft. This is done by flying close to the cockpit of the intercepted aircraft, and yes, it can be done also during night. Positioning one fighter in front of the not responding aircraft while waggling the wings is an internationally understood sign to follow that fighter aircraft for a landing. If no reaction from the rouge aircraft is received but it is assumed that the cockpit of the intercepted aircraft is occupied and the signals have been received, the fighter might use some of their hardware to change the mind of the crew of the intercepted aircraft by firing some tracer shots in front of the rouge aircraft. If still no reaction could be observed the next most obvious course of action would be to monitor and report until fuel would necessitate to return to base.
The words from the transport / defence minister "what should we have done, shoot it down?" are ridiculous, because it neglects the primary purpose of air policing (identifying unknown flying objects) and declares the last option of air policing (using weapons when apropriate) as not practical. Even if it was known in an early state that MH370 had turned around and was identified on military primary radar, it would have been apropriate to alert air defence and raise the alert state of the designated jets ( highest state on ground would be with running engines ready for speedy takeoff). Such facts should be in the textbook of an air defence minister and his statements are loughable the least.
If i'm allowed an personal oppinion, I think that the military would have been able to respond in appropriate mannor because that's what they are there for in peace time, but was never ordered to to so or even was ordered not to follow the normally established procedures for such events. When the aircraft disappeared from the primary radars, a scramble of jets had become useless.
Could a possible plan to hijack the aircraft plan on such behaviour? I think so, and the fact that the duties of the air defence and air tranport sections are performed by one minister makes that even more plausible. How would a transport minister, responsible for the safe conduct of civil air travel order any kind of weapon employment against a civil aircraft in his duty as defence minister? Yes, knowing that and knowing the person of the minister (which I do not do) might lead to the assumption that the military would not be involved in an early state of such hijacking.
Not saying that it was one though.