Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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From that same Malaysian Insider article:
RMAF deployed search aircraft on March 8, but did not inform anyone - The Malaysian Insider
The source also revealed that investigators have confirmed that MH370's pilot, Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah, was the last person to speak to air traffic controllers with the words "Good night Malaysian three-seven-zero".
According to CNN, the Malaysian source told them that there was nothing unusual about the voice and there was no indication of stress. Confirmation of the voice belonging to Zaharie came after police played the recording to five other Malaysia Airlines pilots who knew the pilot and co-pilot, first Officer Fariq Abdul Hamid.
According to CNN, the Malaysian source told them that there was nothing unusual about the voice and there was no indication of stress. Confirmation of the voice belonging to Zaharie came after police played the recording to five other Malaysia Airlines pilots who knew the pilot and co-pilot, first Officer Fariq Abdul Hamid.
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@Lonewolf
I cannot agree that this is a non-story. The minute 370 dropped off the ATC radar, major alarm bells should have been ringing. According to this report RMAF began their search at 8.00am; according to earlier reports 370's transponder and other comms were 'turned off' or became disabled around six or seven hours earlier. Why the big delay? If the ATC's, military and civil aviation authorities of neighboring countries had been informed of the situation immediately, the chances of 370's flight path being tracked would have increased dramatically and we would not be faced with the present situation.
I cannot agree that this is a non-story. The minute 370 dropped off the ATC radar, major alarm bells should have been ringing. According to this report RMAF began their search at 8.00am; according to earlier reports 370's transponder and other comms were 'turned off' or became disabled around six or seven hours earlier. Why the big delay? If the ATC's, military and civil aviation authorities of neighboring countries had been informed of the situation immediately, the chances of 370's flight path being tracked would have increased dramatically and we would not be faced with the present situation.
This particularly applies to interactions between military and civil aviation authorities. Unless there are specific protocols for dealing with specific emergencies in place, any kind of interaction and any information sharing has to be explicitly authorized by someone high in the chain of command (defense minister cabinet level).
In this paradigm, getting RMAF fighters in the air by 8:00 AM on the night of the disappearance is a lightning quick reaction.
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It's this kind of casual attitude that I find extremely frightening. No matter if it's Friday or any other day of the week; no matter if it's "calm", no matter what time of day or night it is. An aircraft disappeared from ATC radar and it seems that no one was sufficiently concerned to alert all relevant authorities until six or seven hours after the event. You think that's OK?
So the question isn't whether or not losing a plane is OK. It's not OK. The question is what are the costs and benefits to society of one course of action over another? And that means the question is whether losing a plane is an acceptable risk. And given how few planes are actually lost my answer to that question is yes, it is an acceptable risk to lose a plane.
Originally Posted by Lonewolf
Carjockey:
I was under the impression that Viet Nam ATC alerted someone in Malaysia ATC. (around 0130-0140 or a bit after, when their attempt to contact the aircraft they expected went for naught) What happened within the various bits of Malaysian bodies who keep track of such things remains unclear. I am not sure that the assumptions you are making are correct, but your questions are well asked.
I was under the impression that Viet Nam ATC alerted someone in Malaysia ATC. (around 0130-0140 or a bit after, when their attempt to contact the aircraft they expected went for naught) What happened within the various bits of Malaysian bodies who keep track of such things remains unclear. I am not sure that the assumptions you are making are correct, but your questions are well asked.
But whatever. I remember that during the major hijacking/ATC incident on 9/11 that there was a lot of confusion during the first few minutes. And those planes were within the same system, in the same country and under radar the whole time.
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I would like to respond to IanW`s post of even date @ 18:27.
The ASEAN states of Brunei, Indonesia, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam responded almost immediately offering varying degrees of SAR assistance. Unfortunately, despite an abundance of resources, the MH370 SAR operation was hampered by poor cooperation and communications, contradictions and an apparent lack of trust in sharing sensitive information between ASEAN countries. Concerns over regional security must have played a significant part in this.
In 2015, ASEAN is expected to put into place an Open Skies Policy, or the Multilateral Agreements on Air Services and the Full Liberalisation of Freight Services, which aims to increase competition in the region’s aviation sector by limiting the restrictions on where airlines can fly and land. With this it is hoped that the region gains more flights, lower costs and greater competition.
The search for MH370 displayed the lack of progress made by ASEAN in developing adequate coordinated maritime Search and Rescue, Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief capabilities.
If anything good is to come of such a monumental tragedy the least we hope for is that it may be the catalyst for ASEAN countries to unite and work together with a common aim of securing all their futures.
Perhaps in the full knowledge and appreciation of the socio-political and economic consequences of this incident that the Malaysian PM has vowed never to abandon the efforts to find the truth behind the mystery of the disappearance of Flight MH370.
The ASEAN states of Brunei, Indonesia, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam responded almost immediately offering varying degrees of SAR assistance. Unfortunately, despite an abundance of resources, the MH370 SAR operation was hampered by poor cooperation and communications, contradictions and an apparent lack of trust in sharing sensitive information between ASEAN countries. Concerns over regional security must have played a significant part in this.
In 2015, ASEAN is expected to put into place an Open Skies Policy, or the Multilateral Agreements on Air Services and the Full Liberalisation of Freight Services, which aims to increase competition in the region’s aviation sector by limiting the restrictions on where airlines can fly and land. With this it is hoped that the region gains more flights, lower costs and greater competition.
The search for MH370 displayed the lack of progress made by ASEAN in developing adequate coordinated maritime Search and Rescue, Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief capabilities.
If anything good is to come of such a monumental tragedy the least we hope for is that it may be the catalyst for ASEAN countries to unite and work together with a common aim of securing all their futures.
Perhaps in the full knowledge and appreciation of the socio-political and economic consequences of this incident that the Malaysian PM has vowed never to abandon the efforts to find the truth behind the mystery of the disappearance of Flight MH370.
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Ian W,
What exactly is a "cooperative surveillance system"?
In over 35 years in ATC, I have never heard that expression, and over the last month, (although not familiar with their local environments), have tried to imagine the mindsets of the offering and receiving controllers involved, many times.
What exactly is a "cooperative surveillance system"?
In over 35 years in ATC, I have never heard that expression, and over the last month, (although not familiar with their local environments), have tried to imagine the mindsets of the offering and receiving controllers involved, many times.
A secondary radar sends out repeated queries on 1030Mhz and receives a 'transponder'response on 1090Mhz that is encoded with an octal code and is also followed by a pulse train containing altimeter and sometimes aircraft ID. The radar uses the angle of the antenna and the time of the response to provide bearing and range and puts up a label on the controller's display at the appropriate position with the decoded aircraft information. If the aircraft does not 'transpond' a response - the controller sees nothing - the aircraft is thus 'cooperating' in the surveillance.
Automatic Dependent Surveillance takes this a step furter. The aircraft transmits on 1090Mhz or SATCOM, its position, the time that position was valid, together with a pulse train that carries aircraft ID, Altimeter, and sometimes its future trajectory, etc . The ground system listens to the appropriate frequency and displays a position symbol and label at the position in the message from the aircraft. This is totally cooperative surveillance as without the aircraft transmitting nobody knows where it is. This is why it is called 'Dependent Surveillance' as the other users of the airspace and controllers are 'dependent' on the aircraft transmitting its position.
It would appear that MH370 went from a cooperative target to a non-cooperative target. Worldwide, ATC is more and more dependent on cooperation from the traffic it is controlling.
Hope that helps You can read Automatic Dependent Surveillance for more detail
Last edited by Ian W; 10th Apr 2014 at 19:44. Reason: Typo correction
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Two search areas
I do not recall any pings ever having been heard in the search area some hundreds of kms NW of Ocean Shield, or any rationale justifying the concentration of ships there even though they are (mostly) within a current designated search area. Hai Xun 01 has been there for some time and is currently nearly stationary at 0.3kts with two other Chinese ships at 3.3 and 5.6. Yes seperation from Ocean Shield is a result but why the NW search zone and the activity there? Or are reasons simply not known?
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@Wader2
Thanks for the cite, I had missed part of the earlier post by recanted (#9648). The information at the link he posted tells us that the Indonesians are apparently also revising their earlier releases, but not much else.
In #9648, recanted was making the argument that the flight had flown straight south from IGARI, I believe that to be a previously discounted theory so I didn't open his link or give his post much attention.
Here are the reasons why I reject the "straight south" scenario:
I think there is some confusion about what is meant by a 180 degree turn, which leads back to the old discussion about whether MH370 made a left turn or a right turn at IGARI. The confusion comes from the concidence that the area where the current search is focused (therefore the terminus of the flight) lies very close to the intersection of a heading of 180 degrees from IGARI, and the fact that the flight did make a 180 degree turn from its normal flight path (whether it turned right or left is irrelevant.) The turn from its normal flight path took it over Koto Bharu on a heading of approximately 238 degrees. The aircraft was sighted passing over Koto Bharu and this flight path is in agreement with all previously released information as well as fuel burn calculations.
The 180 degree turn proposed by recanted would have taken it over a large portion of Indonesian airspace and would have put it on a course in the direction of Jakarta (the 180 degree south flight path would have passed within 200nm of Jakarta) and is certain to have not gone unnoticed by the Indonesians.
Once again the focus of the earlier portion of the flight raises the question of "how far north of NILAM did 370 venture before turning south."
The Indonesian "clarification" in the Star interview places the Indonesians as saying that they never had a radar sighting of MH370 at all. This does nothing to discount a northern excursion of MH370 which would have kept it out of Indonesian radar coverage.
Thanks for the cite, I had missed part of the earlier post by recanted (#9648). The information at the link he posted tells us that the Indonesians are apparently also revising their earlier releases, but not much else.
In #9648, recanted was making the argument that the flight had flown straight south from IGARI, I believe that to be a previously discounted theory so I didn't open his link or give his post much attention.
Here are the reasons why I reject the "straight south" scenario:
I think there is some confusion about what is meant by a 180 degree turn, which leads back to the old discussion about whether MH370 made a left turn or a right turn at IGARI. The confusion comes from the concidence that the area where the current search is focused (therefore the terminus of the flight) lies very close to the intersection of a heading of 180 degrees from IGARI, and the fact that the flight did make a 180 degree turn from its normal flight path (whether it turned right or left is irrelevant.) The turn from its normal flight path took it over Koto Bharu on a heading of approximately 238 degrees. The aircraft was sighted passing over Koto Bharu and this flight path is in agreement with all previously released information as well as fuel burn calculations.
The 180 degree turn proposed by recanted would have taken it over a large portion of Indonesian airspace and would have put it on a course in the direction of Jakarta (the 180 degree south flight path would have passed within 200nm of Jakarta) and is certain to have not gone unnoticed by the Indonesians.
Once again the focus of the earlier portion of the flight raises the question of "how far north of NILAM did 370 venture before turning south."
The Indonesian "clarification" in the Star interview places the Indonesians as saying that they never had a radar sighting of MH370 at all. This does nothing to discount a northern excursion of MH370 which would have kept it out of Indonesian radar coverage.
Last edited by Propduffer; 10th Apr 2014 at 20:19.
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Good idea
in reply to Mozella:Now having two of these events under our belts I think that your idea
has some merit. At the very least it would make for excellent training
opportunities for the various Navies of the world. I suspect (unfortunately)
that we may see more of these events either by copycats or terrorists
seeking to create mayhem or embarassment. The devil of course will be
in the details of who might pay for such equipment.
has some merit. At the very least it would make for excellent training
opportunities for the various Navies of the world. I suspect (unfortunately)
that we may see more of these events either by copycats or terrorists
seeking to create mayhem or embarassment. The devil of course will be
in the details of who might pay for such equipment.
Last edited by averow; 10th Apr 2014 at 20:02. Reason: Spelling
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Prop
I just don't think they see the need to give infinite detail as to where and why the ships are, just that "searching for debris or preparing for future ops" is enough and go into more detail re locating the pings.
Re "USNS Cesar Chavez is to relieve HMAS Success as SAR supply/support vessel."
They must be chewing through stores / fuel to require replen at sea already
unless another reason ?
I just don't think they see the need to give infinite detail as to where and why the ships are, just that "searching for debris or preparing for future ops" is enough and go into more detail re locating the pings.
Re "USNS Cesar Chavez is to relieve HMAS Success as SAR supply/support vessel."
They must be chewing through stores / fuel to require replen at sea already
unless another reason ?
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@ Lieghtman 957
The major surface search area to the WNW of where Ocean Shield and HMS Echo are currently located, is considered to be the most probable area in which floating debris (if any) will be found if the aircraft had entered the sea where the acoustic search is being undertaken. The difference is the notional drift that will have occurred since the event.
The Mark 1 eyeball surface search is what is required.
The major surface search area to the WNW of where Ocean Shield and HMS Echo are currently located, is considered to be the most probable area in which floating debris (if any) will be found if the aircraft had entered the sea where the acoustic search is being undertaken. The difference is the notional drift that will have occurred since the event.
The Mark 1 eyeball surface search is what is required.
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Corpse Recovery???
Several posts have commented about the possibility of recovering bodies from the wreckage of MH370 for post mortem examination. While this would be desirable for several reasons, it is probably not at all feasible. First of all, the impact probably would have shattered many if not all of the bodies on the plane, alive at the time or dead for several hours. Five weeks immersion in salt water will do some really ugly things to human tissue. What the water doesn't destroy, marine life likely will. The fish, crabs and other aquatic life we are used to near the surface probably don't exist at 10K to 15K feet deep. But, as confirmed by Trieste and other deep diving submersibles, there definitely is "life" at those depths and those living organisms have to feed on something.
jim:
Not so sure about that. Depends upon how the plane hit the water. How many were in seat belts, at that point? Unknown. Was it a spiral down/smash or some form of ditching? Unknown.
On the less dire side, water that deep is pretty cold. Tissue breakdown would be slowed. On the not to nice side, human bodies aren't very well built for the pressure at that depth.
A grim business, no matter what.
the impact probably would have shattered many if not all of the bodies on the plane, alive at the time or dead for several hour
On the less dire side, water that deep is pretty cold. Tissue breakdown would be slowed. On the not to nice side, human bodies aren't very well built for the pressure at that depth.
A grim business, no matter what.
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jim:
Not so sure about that. Depends upon how the plane hit the water. How many were in seat belts, at that point? Unknown. Was it a spiral down/smash or some form of ditching? Unknown.
On the less dire side, water that deep is pretty cold. Tissue breakdown would be slowed. On the not to nice side, human bodies aren't very well built for the pressure at that depth.
A grim business, no matter what.
Not so sure about that. Depends upon how the plane hit the water. How many were in seat belts, at that point? Unknown. Was it a spiral down/smash or some form of ditching? Unknown.
On the less dire side, water that deep is pretty cold. Tissue breakdown would be slowed. On the not to nice side, human bodies aren't very well built for the pressure at that depth.
A grim business, no matter what.
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they recovered 75 bodies from af447 after 2 yrs,that was at `13,000ft
75 additional bodies recovered from Air France crash after 2 years - CNN.com
75 additional bodies recovered from Air France crash after 2 years - CNN.com
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Acoustic Search
Below is an updated graphic of the known tracks made by Ocean Shield while towing the TPL.
The latest AIS data is that on the Green track commencing at 10/0822 UTC. At that time the vessel was heading 283°T at 3.0 KTS, and it is assumed that the towing depth has been reduced and she is about to slow and line up for the 293°T track. Towing at 2.0 knots would place her about a mile from the next marked position (15:44) at 15:00. The 15:44 and 16:19 positions are basically the same.
HMS Echo is operating to the East.
EDIT:: The latest graphic shows the Ocean Shield moving on 322°T track, possibly retrieving the TPL. The "stop" between 15:44 and 16:19 could have been to allow the TPL to maximize its depth. The "stop" is highlighted with the Yellow arrow. Ocean Shield heads away to the NW and picks up speed.
At 04:13 HMS Echo is now located near 21°S 104°E. The area of interest is probably very close to her position.
The latest AIS data is that on the Green track commencing at 10/0822 UTC. At that time the vessel was heading 283°T at 3.0 KTS, and it is assumed that the towing depth has been reduced and she is about to slow and line up for the 293°T track. Towing at 2.0 knots would place her about a mile from the next marked position (15:44) at 15:00. The 15:44 and 16:19 positions are basically the same.
HMS Echo is operating to the East.
EDIT:: The latest graphic shows the Ocean Shield moving on 322°T track, possibly retrieving the TPL. The "stop" between 15:44 and 16:19 could have been to allow the TPL to maximize its depth. The "stop" is highlighted with the Yellow arrow. Ocean Shield heads away to the NW and picks up speed.
At 04:13 HMS Echo is now located near 21°S 104°E. The area of interest is probably very close to her position.
Last edited by mm43; 11th Apr 2014 at 05:35. Reason: changed incorrect position data
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This mystery will be solved , the public is deliberately in the dark on this one, because if the authorities don't like what they find it will unfortunately be on the weakest link PILOTS .
Example how could they get the pilots voices mixed up, and that was a simple task.
Example how could they get the pilots voices mixed up, and that was a simple task.
alloyboobtube: how strong is the pilot's union in Malaysia, or at Malaysia Airlines? 
Isn't there anyone to act as voice/advocate for the crew on that aircraft?
Isn't there anyone to act as voice/advocate for the crew on that aircraft?