Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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it is natural that everyone from MAS to Boeing to RR in fact all those parties still standing to point fingers at the dead because it absolves them of any responsibility and there is no-one to defend against those unsubstantiated allegations.
Those repeating this are merely sprouting baseless accusations.
All the supposed evidence leading to blame the pilots can be relied upon as much as any other piece of data.
This search has well proven that any supposed fact is suspect as they get updated, denied, revised, whatever all the time.
Blaming the pilots is the easy way out for the still standing parties and should be noted with the utmost caution/suspicion.
Those repeating this are merely sprouting baseless accusations.
All the supposed evidence leading to blame the pilots can be relied upon as much as any other piece of data.
This search has well proven that any supposed fact is suspect as they get updated, denied, revised, whatever all the time.
Blaming the pilots is the easy way out for the still standing parties and should be noted with the utmost caution/suspicion.
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Along with the need to retrieve equipment, there would be the difficulty (and urgency) of retrieving bodies from this grave for various tests - does anyone know the likelihood of retrieving bodies from such a depth that will yield useful coronial information? Or will the recording devices reveal all?
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I spent a lot of time in the Navy working with similar displays.
The bottom edge (mid bottom to left of screen) is frequency - 0 through X Khz. The longest edge (mid bottom to right upper screen) is time. The vertical component is signal amplitude.
The bottom edge (mid bottom to left of screen) is frequency - 0 through X Khz. The longest edge (mid bottom to right upper screen) is time. The vertical component is signal amplitude.
It's Not Logical Jim.
@Sky9;- Just because the a/c wasn't seen on Radar doesn't mean this was deliberate or planned. Radar coverage is patchy and as has been oft-repeated in this thread, several Governments in the area wouldn't want to admit how poor the coverage of standard of watch is. Hardly surprising then, - but to extrapolate from this fairly predictable fact that the routing was taken deliberately to avoid the Radar is pure speculation. Sure, one can have any pet theory one wishes, but Radar-avoidance is NOT a proven fact, just one more theory.
Known Issue.
@IanW;- The fire theory isn't 'baseless'. It's based on a known, T7-specific issue. Everything about this incident is unprecedented, but this is one area where at least one of the theories is grounded in some known facts. Added to this, a current T7 driver has explained how he can see a chain of events that fit few facts known thus far. No Martians required.
Could there have been some mischief on-board? Of course, but for all the well-rehearsed reason chewed-over ad nauseam already on here, it doesn't seem likely. a/c have disappeared because of technical issues before. They haven't, as far as I'm aware, disappeared because a terrorist wanted to 'hide' a crash. They generally like to go out with a bang.
@RifRaf3;- No, it's not my 'Pet theory', nor even my theory. I'm just pointing out that it has some basis in reality, rather than just being based on nothing more than speculation....
Could there have been some mischief on-board? Of course, but for all the well-rehearsed reason chewed-over ad nauseam already on here, it doesn't seem likely. a/c have disappeared because of technical issues before. They haven't, as far as I'm aware, disappeared because a terrorist wanted to 'hide' a crash. They generally like to go out with a bang.
@RifRaf3;- No, it's not my 'Pet theory', nor even my theory. I'm just pointing out that it has some basis in reality, rather than just being based on nothing more than speculation....
Last edited by GQ2; 7th Apr 2014 at 12:25. Reason: Add.
You would get some useful information back from bodies.
DNA evidence would conclusively prove the identity of the deceased. That may help relatives accept what happened. Insurers will sometimes require DNA evidence (if feasible) prior to paying out a large policy. And if the flight deck is still intact, DNA would confirm who was on the deck (if other forms of identification were not successful).
I don't believe the fire theory. But carboxyhemoglobin levels are increased when people are exposed to carbon monoxide (a byproduct of fire). So significantly elevated carboxyhemoglobin levels would imply a fire. Carboxyhemoglobin is pretty stable (and hence lethal).
Lactate levels may tell you something. Lactate will go up if a person is alive but in a low oxygen environment - how high it goes depends on how long the person was still alive for in a hypoxic environment, and their level of exertion (oxygen consumption) while hypoxic. Lactate will not go up in sudden traumatic death as in an auto accident. Lactate is pretty stable, and normally requires ongoing circulation to clear. It doesn't spontaneously clear after death.
Injury patters will tell you something about the forces involved, and will supplement the information you get from the wreckage.
I suspect toxicology (drug) tests will be negative in this case, but they will obviously be performed on flight crew if identified. .
If fuselage is intact and pax mostly in their seat belts, then they were dead at impact. The urge to avoid drowning is pretty strong.
DNA evidence would conclusively prove the identity of the deceased. That may help relatives accept what happened. Insurers will sometimes require DNA evidence (if feasible) prior to paying out a large policy. And if the flight deck is still intact, DNA would confirm who was on the deck (if other forms of identification were not successful).
I don't believe the fire theory. But carboxyhemoglobin levels are increased when people are exposed to carbon monoxide (a byproduct of fire). So significantly elevated carboxyhemoglobin levels would imply a fire. Carboxyhemoglobin is pretty stable (and hence lethal).
Lactate levels may tell you something. Lactate will go up if a person is alive but in a low oxygen environment - how high it goes depends on how long the person was still alive for in a hypoxic environment, and their level of exertion (oxygen consumption) while hypoxic. Lactate will not go up in sudden traumatic death as in an auto accident. Lactate is pretty stable, and normally requires ongoing circulation to clear. It doesn't spontaneously clear after death.
Injury patters will tell you something about the forces involved, and will supplement the information you get from the wreckage.
I suspect toxicology (drug) tests will be negative in this case, but they will obviously be performed on flight crew if identified. .
If fuselage is intact and pax mostly in their seat belts, then they were dead at impact. The urge to avoid drowning is pretty strong.
Can anybody comment on what we are seeing in this picture that the australian broadcasting corp, what are the x and y and z axis]
It's a waterfall or cascade plot.
The x-axis in the bottom left is the frequency spectrum of the signal, the y-axis is time and the z-axis is the amplitude of individual frequency components. The latest spectrum is shown at the beginning of the plot and then it scrolls along the y-axis as a new spectrum is computed.
I cannot read the values of the x-axis, but it is probably 0-100 kHz, which is consistent with the orange peaks being at 37.5kHz. The y-axis display shows that discrete pulses are being received at regular intervals
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@slats.
I am not sure that there would be much value in determining carboxyhaemoglobin or lactate levels in blood from bodies immersed in hypertonic salt water...Likely the hypertonicity would significantly alter biochemistry.
Examination of lungs and detecting diatoms could give an indication of whether people were alive or deceased prior to immersion, although this is still not 100% conclusive at autopsy.
(apologies for graphic content)
I am not sure that there would be much value in determining carboxyhaemoglobin or lactate levels in blood from bodies immersed in hypertonic salt water...Likely the hypertonicity would significantly alter biochemistry.
Examination of lungs and detecting diatoms could give an indication of whether people were alive or deceased prior to immersion, although this is still not 100% conclusive at autopsy.
(apologies for graphic content)
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@IanW;- The fire theory isn't 'baseless'. It's based on a known, T7-specific issue. Everything about this incident is unprecedented, but this is one area where at least one of the theories is grounded in some known facts. Added to this, a current T7 driver has explained how he can see a chain of events that fit few facts known thus far. No Martians required.
Could there have been some mischief on-board? Of course, but for all the well-rehearsed reason chewed-over ad nauseam already on here, it doesn't seem likely. a/c have disappeared because of technical issues before. They haven't, as far as I'm aware, disappeared because a terrorist wanted to 'hide' a crash. They generally like to go out with a bang.
@RifRaf3;- No, it's not my 'Pet theory', nor even my theory. I'm just pointing out that it has some basis in reality, rather than just being based on nothing more than speculation....
Could there have been some mischief on-board? Of course, but for all the well-rehearsed reason chewed-over ad nauseam already on here, it doesn't seem likely. a/c have disappeared because of technical issues before. They haven't, as far as I'm aware, disappeared because a terrorist wanted to 'hide' a crash. They generally like to go out with a bang.
@RifRaf3;- No, it's not my 'Pet theory', nor even my theory. I'm just pointing out that it has some basis in reality, rather than just being based on nothing more than speculation....
As Egypt Air 990 perhaps?
The point I was making is the same as yours that there is no evidence of what happened until the DFDR and possibly CVR are recovered. There are pointers such as the long flight - which would appear to obviate severe fire; the repeated changes in direction that happen to increase sea transit rather than a visual recovery to home base which would appear to indicate some kind of controlled flight to those waypoints a single incorrectly entered waypoint of course, multiple incorrect entries into an FMS when all the other electrics have failed and the aircraft is VFR on fire?
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Towed Pinger Locator data
The TPL specifications give a max. detection range in excess of 3km with an operating depth of up to 6000 msw. Unconfirmed reports suggest that 600m above bottom is the close range localisation path.
With a cable length of up to 18km - turn around time is not surprising.
This paper: Flight Recorder Localization Following at-Sea Plane Crashes provides technical detail.
It goes beyond my comfort zone but perhaps others might highlight the important points.
With a cable length of up to 18km - turn around time is not surprising.
This paper: Flight Recorder Localization Following at-Sea Plane Crashes provides technical detail.
It goes beyond my comfort zone but perhaps others might highlight the important points.
Last edited by BillS; 7th Apr 2014 at 13:29. Reason: added detail
While I wouldn't rule it out, as far as I'm aware there has only been one instance in 19 odd years of service - Egyptair 667 - of a 777 cockpit fire. Perhaps referring to it as "a known, T7-specific issue" is going a bit over the top.
Last edited by Andy_S; 7th Apr 2014 at 13:51. Reason: Correcting factual inaccuracy - acknowledgement to Lonewolf 50
AndyS, Egypt Air 990 wasn't a fire, it was a swan dive. 
The lost hull was a Boeing 767-300ER, not a Boeing 777-200ER(or any other sort of 777). I think you are referring to Egyptair Flight MS-667 Boeing 777-200, registration SU-GBP.
The lost hull was a Boeing 767-300ER, not a Boeing 777-200ER(or any other sort of 777). I think you are referring to Egyptair Flight MS-667 Boeing 777-200, registration SU-GBP.
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Support Grows to make Jets Tamper-Proof
"Lacking clear-cut answers about the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, aviation industry leaders are looking for ways to prevent key safety and communications systems from being disabled by anyone on commercial airplanes in the future. Potential changes include making satellite-messaging systems and transponders that communicate with air-traffic-control radar virtually tamper-proof............
........The primary goal is to make it practically impossible for flight crews or passengers to turn off electrical power to these devices in midair by removing circuit breakers now normally accessible in the cockpit."
Support Grows to Make Jets Tamper-Proof - WSJ.com
Seems that there are those that see access to the communications capabilities to be a hole in security.
........The primary goal is to make it practically impossible for flight crews or passengers to turn off electrical power to these devices in midair by removing circuit breakers now normally accessible in the cockpit."
Support Grows to Make Jets Tamper-Proof - WSJ.com
Seems that there are those that see access to the communications capabilities to be a hole in security.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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The secondary transponder and satcom ( which must send out position data even in the basic ping) are both coded with info showing it is the secondaries that are operating.
The power to these secondaries is held off by a relay, the relay is turn is operated by the CB to the primaries, pull the primary CB the relay unlatches and the secondaries power up (from a different bus).
In all normal situations (ie nothing untoward is happening hijack etc) wouldn't that suffice.
Now it the unlikely event that one of the secondaries catches fire the CB for secondaries are outside the cockpit under control if CS who would be instructed to pull them, you could even add a small camera and lcd display so the CS could confirm the bay was indeed on fire.
Surely it is not beyond the ability of man to design some fail safe system along these lines, yes there is a cost but the reassurance is worth it?, and yes there will be objections to CS having control of a CB but are there ultimately reasons not to do it.
"Tamper proof." "Fail safe."
This initiative is related to idiot proofing things. The world will always produce a better idiot.
Is there actually a problem? Let us examine, for example, Egypt Air 990.
Some human could get his hands on the power control levers and pull them back when they should have been at altitude happily cruising towards their destination on the eastern side of the Atlantic Ocean. The "Tamper Proof" and "Fail Safe" crowd sugget WHAT solution to that difficulty?
I sincerely hope that they find this hull, and determine whether it was a series of catastrophic systems failures, or something else, that led to its loss. Finding out what did or didn't go wrong might help inform what, if anything, needs remedy.
I am not convinced anything does, other than some of the points raised by those familiar with this model of aircraft concerning the electronics equipment bay perhaps needing more/better fire suppression capability, and perhaps a different access method.
This initiative is related to idiot proofing things. The world will always produce a better idiot.
Is there actually a problem? Let us examine, for example, Egypt Air 990.
Some human could get his hands on the power control levers and pull them back when they should have been at altitude happily cruising towards their destination on the eastern side of the Atlantic Ocean. The "Tamper Proof" and "Fail Safe" crowd sugget WHAT solution to that difficulty?
I sincerely hope that they find this hull, and determine whether it was a series of catastrophic systems failures, or something else, that led to its loss. Finding out what did or didn't go wrong might help inform what, if anything, needs remedy.
I am not convinced anything does, other than some of the points raised by those familiar with this model of aircraft concerning the electronics equipment bay perhaps needing more/better fire suppression capability, and perhaps a different access method.
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If you can't turn 'em off, what you gonna do when they catch fire! DOH!
Alternately, flipping the circuit breakers to "off" activates a back-up transponder which is physically and electrically removed from the main one and sends an alert code upon activation?
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If you can't turn 'em off, what you gonna do when they catch fire! DOH!
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How about segregation so that the offending item can be allowed to burn out without propagation?'
