Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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Fire
I was one of the first people to bring up the possibility of fire many days ago. i reject that hypothesis now. The problem is the simple and basic truth that at 8:11 AM, seven hours later, the airplane pinged a satellite. I'm convinced that this data is legit. I've looked into the computer side of it closely and it makes sense. There is no possible fire scenario that I can imagine that would allow power to that specific unit and not allow power to any other unit. For one, all the SATCOM share the same power circuit. If a fire took out ACARS and the transponder it took out all other SATCOM too. Since the SATCOM was live seven hours later, no fire. Not possible.
Last edited by MountainBear; 17th Mar 2014 at 23:47. Reason: clarity
Shawk
Electronics are speced differently for a/c compared with your TV and they don't necessarily ice up. It's a reasonable point however for a non aviator.
Backoffice
Are you saying that the nose wheel was hundreds of miles ahead of the a/c?
The oil worker was too far away as has been covered many times before. His evidence is not infallible. Please read earlier posts.
Electronics are speced differently for a/c compared with your TV and they don't necessarily ice up. It's a reasonable point however for a non aviator.
Backoffice
Are you saying that the nose wheel was hundreds of miles ahead of the a/c?
The oil worker was too far away as has been covered many times before. His evidence is not infallible. Please read earlier posts.
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Is there anyone posting on this thread who is either:
1 A professional pilot?
2 Has any evidence other than 'MH370 has disappeared'?
1 A professional pilot?
2 Has any evidence other than 'MH370 has disappeared'?
There certainly is a lot of crap being written in here by people that don't know much about Airlines or Flying Jet A/C.
Yes the post above this is a PRIME example of utter rubbish.
1/ You do realize that the 772ER most likely wouldn't reach much above FL400 at the weight they were even with the GEAR UP!! Let alone the crew selecting gear down to Extinguish a wheel well fire.
2/ the nose gear wheel well does not have Fire detection anyway....
3/ under inflated wheels will not catch Fire......
4/ the 777 is equipped with a tire pressure monitoring system ( TPIS ) and the crew would get an EICAS message if any wheels were under inflated.
5/ I've got nothing more except utter contempt for the rubbish I read in here by people that quite obviously know nothing about Wide body Jets or the Airlines that fly them.
Please remember that the media do read this site people.
Try to keep it real.
Yes the post above this is a PRIME example of utter rubbish.
1/ You do realize that the 772ER most likely wouldn't reach much above FL400 at the weight they were even with the GEAR UP!! Let alone the crew selecting gear down to Extinguish a wheel well fire.
2/ the nose gear wheel well does not have Fire detection anyway....
3/ under inflated wheels will not catch Fire......
4/ the 777 is equipped with a tire pressure monitoring system ( TPIS ) and the crew would get an EICAS message if any wheels were under inflated.
5/ I've got nothing more except utter contempt for the rubbish I read in here by people that quite obviously know nothing about Wide body Jets or the Airlines that fly them.
Please remember that the media do read this site people.
Try to keep it real.
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Nosewheel fire
@Papershuffler
Interesting theory, would make sense.
If, yeah if there wouldn't exist some other facts(?), that we seem to know by today.
But still, after reading a lot of garbage in this thread, at least something that would make sense..
Interesting theory, would make sense.
If, yeah if there wouldn't exist some other facts(?), that we seem to know by today.
But still, after reading a lot of garbage in this thread, at least something that would make sense..
Mountain bear
Your point is a valid one, but perhaps a little dogmatic. If it's correct that last ping was picked up by only one sat as opposed to two sats at 4 to 5 hrs giving intersection arcs, then fire gets less likely.
Those reasons, assuming the pings are reliable evidence, make a hijacking to a distant Nthn, or Sthn area the best scenario and that's just what the authorities seem to be opting for.
Your point is a valid one, but perhaps a little dogmatic. If it's correct that last ping was picked up by only one sat as opposed to two sats at 4 to 5 hrs giving intersection arcs, then fire gets less likely.
Those reasons, assuming the pings are reliable evidence, make a hijacking to a distant Nthn, or Sthn area the best scenario and that's just what the authorities seem to be opting for.
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I've discounted this oil rig story since the first report.
One factor that hasn't been considered is humidity. Even given the time of year, this is still a very warm place. And the sea creates a lot of haze, vapor and spray when it is warm.
I'm sure if we have any tropical sailors here, they will tell you that it's very difficult to see something close to the horizon in these conditions at any reasonable distance, let alone hundreds of miles. Certainly that's been my limited experience.
So the sighting is simply totally wrong.
I think he saw meteorites if it was anything.
One factor that hasn't been considered is humidity. Even given the time of year, this is still a very warm place. And the sea creates a lot of haze, vapor and spray when it is warm.
I'm sure if we have any tropical sailors here, they will tell you that it's very difficult to see something close to the horizon in these conditions at any reasonable distance, let alone hundreds of miles. Certainly that's been my limited experience.
So the sighting is simply totally wrong.
I think he saw meteorites if it was anything.
Oil rig sighting
Please lets dismiss this report. It is too unreliable. He either didn't see the plane (maybe a meteor), or it is an unfortunate hoax.
1. I could not find a time for this sighting. Did I miss this? Its not on the original photo. This seems very strange given the precise details given (his coordinates, bearing to sighting).
2. Gives a precise bearing but no elevation other than "high altitude"
3. If he saw MH 370, we know that he could not possibly have seen anything more than a light right on the horizon. How would he conclude this was "high altitude".
4. A fire visible from that distance? I don't think the plane would have flown much further. Where is the wreckage? Would the SATCOM have been destroyed in such a fire? If so, what is the source of the ongoing pings?
5. If he really did see MH370 in one piece and at high altitude, it must have been much closer. 10-20 miles away perhaps. So it flew on for another 30 minutes or so after transponder turned off. Despite Vietnam very early on stating it had reversed course. And anyway, where is the wreckage and where did the pings come from?
6. Nothing more heard from him since.
If you get rid of this datum, what other evidence is there that the plane flew on. This sighting seems to be the only "evidence", and it simply doesn't hold water.
1. I could not find a time for this sighting. Did I miss this? Its not on the original photo. This seems very strange given the precise details given (his coordinates, bearing to sighting).
2. Gives a precise bearing but no elevation other than "high altitude"
3. If he saw MH 370, we know that he could not possibly have seen anything more than a light right on the horizon. How would he conclude this was "high altitude".
4. A fire visible from that distance? I don't think the plane would have flown much further. Where is the wreckage? Would the SATCOM have been destroyed in such a fire? If so, what is the source of the ongoing pings?
5. If he really did see MH370 in one piece and at high altitude, it must have been much closer. 10-20 miles away perhaps. So it flew on for another 30 minutes or so after transponder turned off. Despite Vietnam very early on stating it had reversed course. And anyway, where is the wreckage and where did the pings come from?
6. Nothing more heard from him since.
If you get rid of this datum, what other evidence is there that the plane flew on. This sighting seems to be the only "evidence", and it simply doesn't hold water.
Electronics in cold ambient temperatures
Commercial chips are mostly designed and tested from 0 to 70 C. Industrial chips go to wider ranges, sometimes -40 to +105 C, sometimes more. Military/Aerospace spec are generally qualified from -55 to +125 C and are warehoused in a secure cage separately from commercial and industrial quality chips, with documentation attached to prove their having been tested.
Complete systems are temperature cycled between the limits while cycling the power supply between its limits.
I believe avionics uses mil/aerospace qual chips, therefore should not be a problem at -40.
That's why avionics is so expensive.
Complete systems are temperature cycled between the limits while cycling the power supply between its limits.
I believe avionics uses mil/aerospace qual chips, therefore should not be a problem at -40.
That's why avionics is so expensive.
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I believe avionics uses mil/aerospace qual chips, therefore should not be a problem at -40.
That's why avionics is so expensive.
That's why avionics is so expensive.
Work on manufacturing costs of around 10% of final device price.
NB Software costs are often a component of the final price. But that is a fixed cost per product line rather than a marginal cost.
Last edited by Mahatma Kote; 18th Mar 2014 at 00:44. Reason: Add software
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RifRaf3
I disagree with your assessment that the two are completely different, specifically regarding the physics. But fine, let us just move past whether it is even physically possible and instead move onto the second issue with the theory
If a plane did this, think of the force of impact that would be needed. (and we will just skip the waves and particle displacement, jumping straight to...)
The impact would be unbelievably strong, and certainly picked up on the many geological instruments in the region (including those of USGS) ~ China already proved to us there wasn't suspicious activity until 2 hours later though (activity which was later explained as being an earthquake off the coast of Sumatra)
Is all of it possible this all happened, while leaving zero trace of it happening? I guess theoretically, if absolutely everything went absolutely perfectly right - but it would be one of the more amazingly unexplainable incidents ever witnessed and therefore unbelievably unlikely.
Most likely? Someone who knew what they were doing did what they knew how to do - darkening then piloting the plane to a location we are unaware of (as the experts concluded off the known evidence)
I'm happy to keep juggled balls in the air. I consider the buried a/c scenario my lowest priority, but I can't rule it out.
If a plane did this, think of the force of impact that would be needed. (and we will just skip the waves and particle displacement, jumping straight to...)
The impact would be unbelievably strong, and certainly picked up on the many geological instruments in the region (including those of USGS) ~ China already proved to us there wasn't suspicious activity until 2 hours later though (activity which was later explained as being an earthquake off the coast of Sumatra)
Is all of it possible this all happened, while leaving zero trace of it happening? I guess theoretically, if absolutely everything went absolutely perfectly right - but it would be one of the more amazingly unexplainable incidents ever witnessed and therefore unbelievably unlikely.
Most likely? Someone who knew what they were doing did what they knew how to do - darkening then piloting the plane to a location we are unaware of (as the experts concluded off the known evidence)
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Electronics in cold ambient temperatures
From ve3id ... I believe avionics uses mil/aerospace qual chips, therefore should not be a problem at -40.
That's why avionics is so expensive.
....... That's part of the reason but also the need for extensive qualification and type testing amortised over a relatively low production base contributes also the the cost.
I
That's why avionics is so expensive.
....... That's part of the reason but also the need for extensive qualification and type testing amortised over a relatively low production base contributes also the the cost.
I
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Electronics in cold ambient temperatures
Aviation electronics are specified to -55C, non-condensing atmosphere.
In the case of a hull breach and sudden drop in temperature, the humidity in the atmosphere will be condensing and could coat internal electronic components with ice / water.
Under this unusual condition, how well would the avionics work?
In the case of a hull breach and sudden drop in temperature, the humidity in the atmosphere will be condensing and could coat internal electronic components with ice / water.
Under this unusual condition, how well would the avionics work?
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The Malaysians are saying it's the F/O on the radio because the captain flies the plane, the co-pilot does the radio. There's no PF or PM to those unfamiliar with how sectors are operated, and those giving the media briefings don't actually know that first officer also often gets to fly a sector in the modern world.
That's my understanding, from the Malaysian press briefings. I wouldn't place any value on what the Malaysians are saying as to who made the final radio call, I'd wait until someone knowledgable like the NTSB comes forward with their information.
Or explains to the Malaysians how a commercial airliner works and how the crew retain currency in their operation.
That's my understanding, from the Malaysian press briefings. I wouldn't place any value on what the Malaysians are saying as to who made the final radio call, I'd wait until someone knowledgable like the NTSB comes forward with their information.
Or explains to the Malaysians how a commercial airliner works and how the crew retain currency in their operation.
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Thinking of the future, what can be done about FDR/CVR? Maybe there should be several devices, synched, one fixed as at present and two ejected by force - compressed gas, spring, or a small pyrotechnic charge? The technology is off the shelf and has been for decades in 'cluster bomb' systems which survive incredibly high forces. One to my knowledge survives > 100,000g (sic). We cannot accept the present designs as fit for purpose.
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NO. The ping happens in real time. The aircraft was on that arc somewhere at 8:11 AM. There is no margin of error.
Y'all might be talking about 2 different things. One thing is where the plane was @ 8:11 which is very near the arc. The other thing is the final resting place of the plane which could be hundreds of miles away from the arc...
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RifRaf3 said
Regardless of how the fire would have to act, how is it ACARS never sends out a message saying the fire is there?
Edit to say, also see this great post from MountainBear (just in case you missed it before reading my question)
http://www.pprune.org/8384502-post5470.html
All the scenarios are far fetched, that's how accidents happen in an environment of high safety and redundancy. Yes, the fires would have to occur in that 'far-fetched' manner for this to occur. So what.
I'm interested in the least far-fetched scenario.
I'm interested in the least far-fetched scenario.
Edit to say, also see this great post from MountainBear (just in case you missed it before reading my question)
http://www.pprune.org/8384502-post5470.html
Last edited by D.S.; 18th Mar 2014 at 00:50.
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Mountain bear
Your point is a valid one, but perhaps a little dogmatic. If it's correct that last ping was picked up by only one sat as opposed to two sats at 4 to 5 hrs giving intersection arcs, then fire gets less likely.
Those reasons, assuming the pings are reliable evidence, make a hijacking to a distant Nthn, or Sthn area the best scenario and that's just what the authorities seem to be opting for.
Your point is a valid one, but perhaps a little dogmatic. If it's correct that last ping was picked up by only one sat as opposed to two sats at 4 to 5 hrs giving intersection arcs, then fire gets less likely.
Those reasons, assuming the pings are reliable evidence, make a hijacking to a distant Nthn, or Sthn area the best scenario and that's just what the authorities seem to be opting for.
Picky picky picky.
The cost of the parts is not just what you pay to the supplier, but the qualifying and testing that has to be done to mil spec standards. I stand by my original statement.
The cost of the parts is not just what you pay to the supplier, but the qualifying and testing that has to be done to mil spec standards. I stand by my original statement.
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RifRaf3 said
Regardless of how the fire would have to act, how is it ACARS never sends out a message saying the fire is there?
Edit to say, also see this great post from MountainBear (just in case you selectively missed it before reading my question)
http://www.pprune.org/8384502-post5470.html
Regardless of how the fire would have to act, how is it ACARS never sends out a message saying the fire is there?
Edit to say, also see this great post from MountainBear (just in case you selectively missed it before reading my question)
http://www.pprune.org/8384502-post5470.html
ACARS is not all knowing. If there is un-annuciated fire, ACARS will not know about it and will not report it.
How could it?