Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

[p.j.m]

Originally Posted by island_airphoto

So if we have a given of:
Inmarsat data is good

I think the only given is that the Inmarsat data received is good. We don't know the limits of reception for the satellite system, or who its sent on to.

The data is likely used by numerous identities, not just forwarded (on a subscription basis) to MAS, or RR or the NSA etc

At this point in time its not known if the absense of data, equals the last location of the aircraft.

[island_airphoto]

I didn't mean to imply last Inmarsat record = end of the airplane. They could have finally found out how to turn it off. OTOH for the entire time it WAS on the plane had to be intact at least with electrical power.

[JanetFlight]

Interesting...

Re Missing Flight MH370: Smoke from North Sentinel Island « Roy Spencer, PhD

[SQGRANGE]

45 to 5 in a minute??

"The claimed altitude of 45Kft seems highly implausible - balancing a pin on a knife-edge sort of thing. As for the claimed altitude loss of 40Kft in one minute, well, it doesn't seem likely there would be much left after trying that one. Am I wrong?"
No, for a start why take the aircraft outside its safe operating altitude and to achieve such a rapid decent in one minute would probably cause immeasurable structural damage.
So if the intention was to "confuse" anyone by then flying somewhere else (after taking major steps to disable comms) why take that risk.
Brings this NYT info into serious question.

[barrel_owl]

Originally Posted by Communicator

Inmarsat's press release disclosed that Inmarsat has provided link data to its client SITA (which runs part of the ACARS service). SITA then forwarded the information to MAS.

Inmarsat simply stated that "routine, automated signals were registered on the Inmarsat network from Malaysia Airlines flight MH370" (link to the official Inmarsat webpage).

Maybe I am grossly misunderstanding their official statement, but honestly I can't read there any confirmation of what's being widely speculated on several mainstream sources and here during the last two days.

[nliving]

"#3523 (permalink)Hypoxia as a way to get compliant pax and cabin crew?
I suppose one way to make passengers and cabin crew compliant with any kind of nefarious activity on the flight deck would be to depressurize the aircraft slowly while the flight crew put on O2 masks. If everyone in the back has blacked out from hypoxia then there wouldn't be much resistance emanating from the cabin. Could this work?"

Yes, and as I suggested yesterday an environment of elevated CO2 would also incapacitate the passengers - whether intentional or as an accident. Once the passengers were unconscious O2 masks would be futile as the liter flow is too low.

Just wondering what a pilot would do if their entire passenger manifest were accidentally overcome (dead) by elevated CO2. Land in Beijing with Malaysia Airlines taking blame immediately, or ditch the plane in the deep ocean and leave speculation open for months if not years. My opinion only.

[olasek]

and the laws of physics state that man-made constructions fail

There is nothing in Physics about it.
But we know from statistical analysis of causes of aircraft accidents that what fails even more is pilot's mind.

[StormyKnight]

Originally Posted by 1stspotter

ABC News reports that two data systems were switched off with an interval of 14 minutes.

First at 1:07 AM the data transmission system was not sending data anymore, then at 1.21 AM the transponder did not sent any data.

ABC suggest this was done deliberatley.

The 'ping data' to satellites is the only system which cannot be shutdown manually.

Malaysia Airline Search Intensifies in Two Widely Separated Areas - ABC News

Since the data is not transmitted continuously this is not a valid conclusion. The ACARS Data is ONLY transmitted in very short bursts that can be up to 30 minutes (suggested normal interval by MAL CEO & others on this forum) apart in cruise. The LAST ACARS DATA transmitted (not ping) was at 1:07....but that doesn't mean the system stopped then, it just means that from then on till actual turn off, there was no issue with the engines i.e. no events & the time period between reporting had not expired so the ACARS did not need to transmit.

[training wheels]

Originally Posted by Titania

Do you mean to tell me that pilots would not know to navigate by the stars?

Yes. Star navigation wasn't in the ATPL Nav syllabus in 2006 when I did mine. Maybe it was in 1956 when commercial aircraft carried a navigator on board?

[Sheep Guts]

Is the data erroneous ?

The primary radar plots from the Malaysian military need to be confirmed with civilian counterparts and other military. If they can't they need to run a live test. Get a B777 and fly it on the SAME track and see what their radar returns are like. They could do this today just coordinate all agencies. Malay, Thai and military.
The area where these returns are reported is high traffic area. Flights to India to Phuket, Langkawi, Penang, Hadyai, Krabi etc etc. Also is this primary radar data accurate, with jumping flight levels sounds like different targets to me.

The Immersat info needs to be made public. Tell us what they exactly have. If it's just dumb keep alive pings it's next to useless. If they have plots they need to come forward.

[island_airphoto]

I know how to navigate by stars, but I learned it on a boat. It was not taught when I was in flight school in the 1980s.

[Passenger 389]

Onetrack,

Weren't the Kiwi rig worker "eyewitness" (who may well have seen something, just not the missing plane) and those 8 "earwitnesses" on the coast of Malaysia situated hundreds of miles apart? (Perhaps 750km or more, judging by one map posted earlier). Seems a mighty long way for either (let alone both) to have seen and heard a 777 "vaporize." It wasn't Krakatoa.

[SOPS]

Star navigation wasn't in the syllabus in 1977, when I did my ATPL. I have seemed to survive over 20000 hours without it.

[mickjoebill]

Remember that cabin crew have access to portable bottled air, the question is would this supply outlast the endurance of the pilots supply?
Temporarily venting air may not guarantee permanently disabling all of the cabin crew?

[MountainBear]

In that case there would have been an emergency call or at least a brief 7700 squawk. Even Swiss Air managed to talk to the controllers even as molten metal was raining in the cockpit.

That all depends on the nature of the fire and where it began. Contrary to assertions it doesn't require a "raging" fire or "molten metal" to take out the comm systems. It is possible that some of the electrical systems were disabled on the plane before anyone smelled smoke or even realized there was a fire. Anyone who is interested in fire on board airplanes should read the entire accident report of the UPS 6 crash in the middle east (2010).

http://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicati...013%202010.pdf

[olasek]

That all depends on the nature of the fire and where it began

Then find an accident with fire which (roughly) fits data of this accident, so far you aren't even close.
Even on this UPS 6 flight you cite, with extremely fast spreading fire, the crew had time to declare emergency.

[DWS]

FWIW re updated info

If you have cable- and access to Megan Kelly and rebroadcast- she has a panel of pilots, FAA, ex military, etc and spending the whole hour on the issue

debunking some, and trying to verify other info

I'm sure it will be rebroadcast ( i'm on PDST ) its 645 pm now,and her program will be on again at 9 pm my time

She also had by phone andy pastor of WSJ

On ex military type ( navy captain ) made an expected comment he doubted that then Pentagon/Navy would dispatch military assets into the Indian ocean just to give the troops sea time . . . . ( paraphrased )

And most believe then US has much more info than released

And most now believe it was a criminal act . .

One pilot explained that if pilot dumps pressurization at 30 K or higher, then passengers will be goners after a while …

Pinging is supposed to be on 1 hour intervals . .

[SMOC]

Phugoid Motion
I'll probably get deleted again, but still wondering after days why no one seems to have mentioned Phugoid, up & down motion lack of control, to explain staying in the air for hours without reaching an airport, and now, confirmation of extreme changes in altitude.

Damage to the a/c that led to lack of control leading to phugoid motion, eg. Engine Thrust only control, would allow the plane to fly around for hours with very little control over direction.

Phugoid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Examples are:
1985- Japan Airlines Flight 123
1989- United Airlines Flight 232

I'm interested to know what role the 777s envelope protection would play in a disconnected A/P ghost flight?

[Innaflap]

I habent seen it mentioned on here but CNN is saying that there were lithium ion batteries in the hold.

CNN Exclusive: Analysis shows Flight 370 crashed in Indian Ocean - CNN.com

[papershuffler]

Navigation

As pointed out elsewhere, and IIRC already on this thread, pax could figure out the plane was off course by looking out of the window...downwards...at the dark sea they were flying over for hours and hours, when it should have been land, with lights every now and again.
That is, assuming they were conscious and the flight path went over the sea for a long period of time.