Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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"Post 2548 makes an excellent point... at 35000 feet, the distance to the horizon is ~229 miles, or 368 km."
But the deck of an oil rig is well above the sea so you would have to add the sight distance from the rig to the horizon.
Add in refraction then it might well be possible to see at that distance.
And if currents took the debris away from the rig it could well have been closer than where it was found.
Not saying he did see it (could have been a meteorite) but that it does not appear to be completely impossible.
But the deck of an oil rig is well above the sea so you would have to add the sight distance from the rig to the horizon.
Add in refraction then it might well be possible to see at that distance.
And if currents took the debris away from the rig it could well have been closer than where it was found.
Not saying he did see it (could have been a meteorite) but that it does not appear to be completely impossible.
jetsy
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Neogen,
The plane will not go missing if the transponder fails. There are other means of communications as you might be aware of. This one is highly suspicious since it traveled additional milage..Or so we are told.
The plane will not go missing if the transponder fails. There are other means of communications as you might be aware of. This one is highly suspicious since it traveled additional milage..Or so we are told.
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The plane will not go missing if the transponder fails. There are other means of communications as you might be aware of. This one is highly suspicious since it traveled additional milage..Or so we are told.
Then the question would be why didnt they communicate back ?
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Quote:
There'd appear to be a lot of CNN and "expert" agonizing over the apparent size of the objects constituting the satellite imagery of the possible debris field SE of the MAS370 track. Apart from it conceivably being a partially deflated/inflated escape slide, it could also be a concoction of wreckage linked by wiring looms. You only need a few wiring looms to remain partly intact and interweaved to keep a debris field together in one clump.
There'd appear to be a lot of CNN and "expert" agonizing over the apparent size of the objects constituting the satellite imagery of the possible debris field SE of the MAS370 track. Apart from it conceivably being a partially deflated/inflated escape slide, it could also be a concoction of wreckage linked by wiring looms. You only need a few wiring looms to remain partly intact and interweaved to keep a debris field together in one clump.
unlike ABs, the 777 has one wiring loom from fore to aft.
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#2548 Australopithicus and gruntpuddock #2566
but as I said in my post #2546 the wreckage was not at that point on the day of the crash, it was probably about "km" of 387km, and if you look at that it is about 70 miles from the rig, ( the distance estimated in the email was 50-70).
Look back and find the post with the prevailing currents and you will see they sweep down from G/Tonkin around tip of Vietnam and SW (in my original post I did say SE but meant SW)which is virtually the track from rig to wreckage.
If this is wreckage the guy on the rig saw the crash and it was on fire and had probably been out of control for a while before descending.
At 387 km from Chinese satellite image to oil rig a problem arises:
An object at 35,000' would be below the horizon of the observer on the rig.
An object at 35,000' would be below the horizon of the observer on the rig.
Look back and find the post with the prevailing currents and you will see they sweep down from G/Tonkin around tip of Vietnam and SW (in my original post I did say SE but meant SW)which is virtually the track from rig to wreckage.
If this is wreckage the guy on the rig saw the crash and it was on fire and had probably been out of control for a while before descending.
Last edited by isca; 13th Mar 2014 at 03:27. Reason: added my original post number in
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Dai_Farr
Forgive me if I you mistook "A,N,C" as the required processes, that must be followed every time there is an emergency.
That's not the case, and it is not what I was stating. The military-style "chant" is an easy way for younger minds to be taught what is important, and the order of importance. The more the sky gets filled with young pilots who have known nothing other than following the green/magenta line, the more important it becomes to remind them that they must fly the aircraft - when needed - to the exclusion of everything else, until it becomes safe to do other stuff.
In an emergency, the pilot must prioritise. If ATC can help you navigate whilst you aviate, that's fine: use them. But don't crash because you think you need to make a radio call..
That's not the case, and it is not what I was stating. The military-style "chant" is an easy way for younger minds to be taught what is important, and the order of importance. The more the sky gets filled with young pilots who have known nothing other than following the green/magenta line, the more important it becomes to remind them that they must fly the aircraft - when needed - to the exclusion of everything else, until it becomes safe to do other stuff.
In an emergency, the pilot must prioritise. If ATC can help you navigate whilst you aviate, that's fine: use them. But don't crash because you think you need to make a radio call..
Isca...
It was my post saying that line of sight was impossible to the rig. Let me rephrase with elaboration: the formula for distance to the horizon is sq root of altitude x 1.23 for Statute miles.
Elevation is additive, so the extra 12.3 SM the observer gains from deck elevation is added to the aircraft to horizon distance
Can you explain again, in English, what your coordinates mean? "Km of 387" is cryptic to me.
llne of sight from the rig, assuming a deck height of 100' and a target of 35,000' is 392 km, but the aeroplane would be observed to be ON THE HORIZON. And that would need to be a spectacular fire to be seen from almost 400km away.
Factoring the reports of the aircraft descending from 35,000' it becomes impossible due to the earth's curvature
The Chinese images are from the day after the event, hence within a few km of actual impact, assuming drift.
In any event, I did not read any emphasis in the purported email about the sighting to be so low as to be on the horizon.
It was my post saying that line of sight was impossible to the rig. Let me rephrase with elaboration: the formula for distance to the horizon is sq root of altitude x 1.23 for Statute miles.
Elevation is additive, so the extra 12.3 SM the observer gains from deck elevation is added to the aircraft to horizon distance
Can you explain again, in English, what your coordinates mean? "Km of 387" is cryptic to me.
llne of sight from the rig, assuming a deck height of 100' and a target of 35,000' is 392 km, but the aeroplane would be observed to be ON THE HORIZON. And that would need to be a spectacular fire to be seen from almost 400km away.
Factoring the reports of the aircraft descending from 35,000' it becomes impossible due to the earth's curvature
The Chinese images are from the day after the event, hence within a few km of actual impact, assuming drift.
In any event, I did not read any emphasis in the purported email about the sighting to be so low as to be on the horizon.
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Shahidan to fly to undisclosed location to verify possible sightings.
KUALA LUMPUR: Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department Datuk Seri Shahidan Kassim confirmed that he will be flying to an undisclosed location late Thursday morning to verify possible sightings of the missing Malaysia Airlines (MAS) flight MH370.
Missing MH370: Shahidan to fly to undisclosed location to verify possible sightings - Nation | The Star Online
KUALA LUMPUR: Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department Datuk Seri Shahidan Kassim confirmed that he will be flying to an undisclosed location late Thursday morning to verify possible sightings of the missing Malaysia Airlines (MAS) flight MH370.
Missing MH370: Shahidan to fly to undisclosed location to verify possible sightings - Nation | The Star Online
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Cover up
I previously posted that I believed the Malaysians were hiding something. I assumed something so crazy happened that they think they can't tell but pressure from China would force them to communicate all they know.
Noticing the latest developments, I now believe, the only thing the Malaysians are trying to cover up is their own complete incompetence about what happened and that they have neither proper equipment, nor people, to do something as simple as tracking their own aircraft and speak more than 2 straight sentences in a press conference, without contradicting themselves. The truth would simply disclose that they are completely defenseless and clueless, about what is going on at their borders and in their airspace. Living in Malaysia, that is a scary thought, particularly that they have sighted that "UFO" north west of Penang.
As far as the missing flight is concerned, I truly hope the crash site is soon being confirmed, black boxes recovered and the reasons for all the tragic riddles being solved.
Noticing the latest developments, I now believe, the only thing the Malaysians are trying to cover up is their own complete incompetence about what happened and that they have neither proper equipment, nor people, to do something as simple as tracking their own aircraft and speak more than 2 straight sentences in a press conference, without contradicting themselves. The truth would simply disclose that they are completely defenseless and clueless, about what is going on at their borders and in their airspace. Living in Malaysia, that is a scary thought, particularly that they have sighted that "UFO" north west of Penang.
As far as the missing flight is concerned, I truly hope the crash site is soon being confirmed, black boxes recovered and the reasons for all the tragic riddles being solved.
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Question for 772 Drivers
If the 777 has only a single wiring loom, how does it provide Redundnacy? Is the loom encased in carbon composite shields with "Sub-bundles" within??
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1) A 777 has at least two transponders, if not three. One transponder inop does not make the plane disappear or fall out of the sky. The Air India 777 return after departure makes sense, because if the second transponder would have failed on a 15 hours flight it may have needed to land somewhere, where it would not like to be. Most FIRs over land do not allow to fly without transponder anymore, think of TCAS.
2) The primary radar of Malaysia is far from covering the whole area and peninsula. There are big gaps. This is the biggest problem for the Air Force chiefs to admit. It is even doubtful if the last position spot is under primary surveilance.
3) The suspect plane at 02.15 LT 200 km Northwest of Penang was likely SIA68 at FL300. It is standard for SIN departure traffic to Europe to fly through that area that low for the first three hours due to weight.
4) The Chinese crash site is not in any territorial waters. Territorial waters do not extend beyond 12 NM.
5) The Kiwi sighting was west and probably at a spot well above the horizon. The Chinese site would be SouthSouthWest and well below the horizon.
2) The primary radar of Malaysia is far from covering the whole area and peninsula. There are big gaps. This is the biggest problem for the Air Force chiefs to admit. It is even doubtful if the last position spot is under primary surveilance.
3) The suspect plane at 02.15 LT 200 km Northwest of Penang was likely SIA68 at FL300. It is standard for SIN departure traffic to Europe to fly through that area that low for the first three hours due to weight.
4) The Chinese crash site is not in any territorial waters. Territorial waters do not extend beyond 12 NM.
5) The Kiwi sighting was west and probably at a spot well above the horizon. The Chinese site would be SouthSouthWest and well below the horizon.
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on the map posted below mine original post there a map the same as the one I am commenting on.On this map is a line from the wreckage to the rig, that line is annotated 387km, i believe the km part (of that annotation) is about 70 km from the rig which is the distance the observer thought he was looking at.
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Oil rig worker reported watching MH370 going down
on Twitter. Estimated distance 50-75 km. Gave his name & NZ passport No as well as Lat & Long. said he had told the authorities but received no response:
https://twitter.com/guywalters/statu...338496/photo/1
https://twitter.com/guywalters/statu...338496/photo/1
Last edited by INTEL101; 13th Mar 2014 at 03:48.
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@humbleppl
I posted a similar matter earlier regarding the competence of Malaysian air defences but it was deleted. Enjoy it while you can
But yes, I agree that this shambolic performance is designed to cover-up the total incompetence of the Malaysian Government team. I opined that neither a hijacked commercial airliner nor a subsonic military aircraft would likely have transponders active when entering peninsular Malaysia with "The twin towers" as the target. But the Malaysians would be able to confirm what happened after two days, then change their minds.
I now share the view that believing they were covering something else up was giving them too much credit.
But yes, I agree that this shambolic performance is designed to cover-up the total incompetence of the Malaysian Government team. I opined that neither a hijacked commercial airliner nor a subsonic military aircraft would likely have transponders active when entering peninsular Malaysia with "The twin towers" as the target. But the Malaysians would be able to confirm what happened after two days, then change their minds.
I now share the view that believing they were covering something else up was giving them too much credit.
Last edited by philipat; 13th Mar 2014 at 03:54.
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Supposed wreckage found and ambiguous turn back stmts
Missing Malaysia Airlines jet: Chinese satellite photographs possible wreckage | smh.com.au
My first post got dropped or was not evaluated.
The path from the origin to the point of lost com/transponder in the map shown is familiar to us all. The dis-ambiguous turn that would have had to led to the anomalous primary radar return off the west side of Malaysia is not depicted. But the supposed wreckage that China promotes as potential is perfectly in line with the original statement made a few days ago that referred to the fact that the a/c "may have turned back." They did not come out and state that it may have been spotted on radar temporarily off the west coast for another day or so. As a result. It is reasonable to conceive from the location of the supposed wreckage, in relation to the original known flight path and last known position, that it executed a roughly 170-180 degree turn to head back.
This isn't typical of what I have heard of a hijacker. They usually do not ask to return to where they came from. Not like they left their wallet and need to go home and get it.
If the turn is roughly a 180, it would place in my head, the idea that the plane had suffered a mechanical failure and was attempting a return.
Or is that just what they want us to believe?! Lol
My first post got dropped or was not evaluated.
The path from the origin to the point of lost com/transponder in the map shown is familiar to us all. The dis-ambiguous turn that would have had to led to the anomalous primary radar return off the west side of Malaysia is not depicted. But the supposed wreckage that China promotes as potential is perfectly in line with the original statement made a few days ago that referred to the fact that the a/c "may have turned back." They did not come out and state that it may have been spotted on radar temporarily off the west coast for another day or so. As a result. It is reasonable to conceive from the location of the supposed wreckage, in relation to the original known flight path and last known position, that it executed a roughly 170-180 degree turn to head back.
This isn't typical of what I have heard of a hijacker. They usually do not ask to return to where they came from. Not like they left their wallet and need to go home and get it.
If the turn is roughly a 180, it would place in my head, the idea that the plane had suffered a mechanical failure and was attempting a return.
Or is that just what they want us to believe?! Lol
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But the deck of an oil rig is well above the sea so you would have to add the sight distance from the rig to the horizon.
Running the computations for an oil rig platform 100 m above the ocean, and an object 348 Km away at 38,000 ft MSL, the line of sight would be 0.33 deg above the horizontal line of sight. At 100 m elevation, the horizon is 0.32 deg below horizontal. So the object would appear to be approximately 0.65 deg above the visible horizon - slightly more than the width of a full moon.
Certainly on a perfectly clear night you can see the moon rising, so it's obvious that you might be able to see that far. But it requires perfectly clear conditions nearly down to the horizon for 348 km - not common. And the airplane clearly wouldn't appear so high in the sky as to be obviously an airplane - not on a dark nearly moonless night in the middle of the ocean with no visible horizon and thus no clear reference for where the water ended and sky began.
(According to some atmospherics pages, refraction will affect these numbers, but it's hard to predict and may actually be either a positive or negative effect, meaning the farthest visible horizon can appear closer or farther, depending on the temperature gradients in the atmosphere.)
I also must question the oil rig worker's assertion that he could tell the plane was in one piece, and that it wasn't changing aspect and thus going towards or away from him. The best human eye can resolve a 30cm object at 1km; at 348 km this translates to about 100 m. The airplane would thus be slightly below the resolvable size to the human eye with perfect vision - possibly visible but only as an unresolved dot. Any aspect change would be far to slow to be detectable, and any debris cloud or fireball would appear as a single object no matter how segmented.
It would be far more likely that this oil rig worker saw a light flaring from a fairly close ship at that low elevation, than an airplane at 38,000 ft 348 miles away. Both would be at approximately the same location in his field of view. On the other hand, if he saw anything high enough in the sky to be certain it was an airplane instead of a ship, it was far closer than this flight would have been, based on other "known" data.
I'm sure he's not misleading anyone intentionally, but it doesn't pass the math sniff test.
Dip of the Horizon
Visual acuity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The comments re being able (or not able) to see the plane burning from the oil rig, you are assuming he saw it at point of impact re the satellite photos. As he described it, it was still flying, though moving towards or away form him. We just don't know how long it may have remained in the air after this time.
I am not saying I buy into the credibility of the photos, we need more information, but don't discount things just because the oil rig is too far away from the purported crash site. He never claimed to see it crash from memory.
I am not saying I buy into the credibility of the photos, we need more information, but don't discount things just because the oil rig is too far away from the purported crash site. He never claimed to see it crash from memory.