Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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Originally Posted by phil gollin
Lots of concentration on the civilian ships (and ADV) searching for some wreckage, how about any submarines ?
The RN sent a nuclear sub - no updates as to where she might be.
The Australians have some ( 4 ????? ) Collins class submarines which were subject to a very acrimonious procurement process - here there has been no mention of their deployment.
And, of course, the US has a few subs knocking around.
Submarines have extremely sophisticated underwater listening equipment and the lack of publicity is odd.
The RN sent a nuclear sub - no updates as to where she might be.
The Australians have some ( 4 ????? ) Collins class submarines which were subject to a very acrimonious procurement process - here there has been no mention of their deployment.
And, of course, the US has a few subs knocking around.
Submarines have extremely sophisticated underwater listening equipment and the lack of publicity is odd.
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Originally Posted by phil gollin View Post
The RN sent a nuclear sub - no updates as to where she might be.
The RN sent a nuclear sub - no updates as to where she might be.
The French sent L'Emerauld (a nuclear sub) to aid in the initial search for AF447. The first problem that had to be addressed was that their sonar detection was not aligned to the ULB frequency of 37.5kHz. That with some software updates and testing on another Rubic class sub was achieved. Probably too late in the calendar of events.
So, other than making use of their sonar, providing it can address the task, subs are of no particular benefit when comes to searching for aircraft that have become seacraft or any such like UFOs.
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Recanted
Are you saying they lied? Are you saying they created that radar plot they showed the Chinese?
Or are you saying they are unreliable rather than untrustworthy?
Malaysia radar reports untrustworthy
Or are you saying they are unreliable rather than untrustworthy?
RAAF Orion detects possible signal in hunt for MH370
The Chief Coordinator of the Joint Agency Coordination Centre, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston (Ret'd), has confirmed that whilst conducting an acoustic search this afternoon a RAAF AP-3C Orion aircraft has detected a possible signal in the vicinity of the Australian Defence Vessel Ocean Shield.
“The acoustic data will require further analysis overnight but shows potential of being from a made-made source,” Air Chief Marshal Houston (Ret'd) said.
“I will provide a further update if, and when, further information becomes available.”
“The acoustic data will require further analysis overnight but shows potential of being from a made-made source,” Air Chief Marshal Houston (Ret'd) said.
“I will provide a further update if, and when, further information becomes available.”
http://www.jacc.gov.au/media/release...ril/mr016.aspx
How are the Orion's being used for acoustic searches ?
Last edited by mmurray; 10th Apr 2014 at 10:05. Reason: Found source of story.
How are the Orion's being used for acoustic searches ?
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BBC News - Malaysia plane MH370: Possible new signal in search
A plane searching for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 has detected a possible new underwater signal, Australian officials say.
An Australian P-3 Orion aircraft picked up the signal in the same area where an Australian vessel detected audio pings earlier this week, officials said.
The signal would require further analysis, but could have been from a "man-made source", officials said.
A plane searching for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 has detected a possible new underwater signal, Australian officials say.
An Australian P-3 Orion aircraft picked up the signal in the same area where an Australian vessel detected audio pings earlier this week, officials said.
The signal would require further analysis, but could have been from a "man-made source", officials said.
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They are using standard sonobuoys (I believe) with 1,000 ft cable length.
The tactic would probably be to 'lay a line' of a given number of buoys, each of which will transmit to the P3 on a discrete frequency for possibly one hour although other times could be set.
After one hour a second line of buoys could be laid a given spacing from the first, and so on so that a curtain is swept through the search area.
What we don't know is what spacing there will be between buoys.
As the ULB is static then once a sonobuoy is in range it will continuously receive the signal which would then be picked up at some point in the monitoring schedule.
The above is of course only one tactic. It is possible they may lay a field of sonobuoys on the premise that the detection possibility will vary with local changes to salinity and temperature.
The tactic would probably be to 'lay a line' of a given number of buoys, each of which will transmit to the P3 on a discrete frequency for possibly one hour although other times could be set.
After one hour a second line of buoys could be laid a given spacing from the first, and so on so that a curtain is swept through the search area.
What we don't know is what spacing there will be between buoys.
As the ULB is static then once a sonobuoy is in range it will continuously receive the signal which would then be picked up at some point in the monitoring schedule.
The above is of course only one tactic. It is possible they may lay a field of sonobuoys on the premise that the detection possibility will vary with local changes to salinity and temperature.
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@mmurray - The Orion carries 84 sonar buoys. The sonar buoys are dropped and release sophisticated underwater hydrophones that unreel on a 1000' (328M) long cable.
The buoy transmits any signal data discovered, back to the Orion for analysis, through a radio system in its surface unit.
The Orions have been re-configured to find the 37.5kHz signal and to contend with fluctuations in the 37.5kHz signal.
The buoy transmits any signal data discovered, back to the Orion for analysis, through a radio system in its surface unit.
The Orions have been re-configured to find the 37.5kHz signal and to contend with fluctuations in the 37.5kHz signal.
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Inmarsat Aeronautical Support
Good summary of Inmarsat, it's support for the MH370 search, and potential for positioning information as a safety feature:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/bu...fame.html?_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/bu...fame.html?_r=0
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Retiring Search Mission Coordinator
Regarding MH370 floating wreckage, if any, the following is from The Australian filed on Jan 6th 2014. "AN eight-metre boat believed lost eight months ago after being capsized by a freak wave off Exmouth Western Australia has been found 4000 nautical miles away, washed up on an island (Mayotte) off the coast of Madagascar."
Doing some maths that works out at approx 0.7kts drift.
MH370 was "lost" on 8th March, it is now 10th April say 33 days ago.
I estimate wreckage has drifted 550Nm and dispersed over a vast area. No doubt some may well end up in Mayotte in due course!
Doing some maths that works out at approx 0.7kts drift.
MH370 was "lost" on 8th March, it is now 10th April say 33 days ago.
I estimate wreckage has drifted 550Nm and dispersed over a vast area. No doubt some may well end up in Mayotte in due course!
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Sonobuoy detection
Refer to my post #9674
It was Commodore Levy (Sp) who mentioned at the Wednesday briefing that the RAAF had modified the aircraft systems to allow the deployment of the AP-3C Orions to undertake a passive search in the area. As an ex fish head the use of a sonobuoy pattern in the ocean to detect and localise a target is one of the first and basic detection methods used in Anti Submarine Warfare for over 50 years.
If the ping stays long enough a series of bearings can be obtained, or they were able to in the older P2 and P3 aircraft equipment that would greatly reduce the area of probability for the final underwater search phase.
What a wonderful effort that is going into this search.
It was Commodore Levy (Sp) who mentioned at the Wednesday briefing that the RAAF had modified the aircraft systems to allow the deployment of the AP-3C Orions to undertake a passive search in the area. As an ex fish head the use of a sonobuoy pattern in the ocean to detect and localise a target is one of the first and basic detection methods used in Anti Submarine Warfare for over 50 years.
If the ping stays long enough a series of bearings can be obtained, or they were able to in the older P2 and P3 aircraft equipment that would greatly reduce the area of probability for the final underwater search phase.
What a wonderful effort that is going into this search.
Presumption:
Beacon emissions are what are being hard. Beacon is still attached to FDR/CVR which is still attached to 9M-MRO.
Concerns:
1. Bottom contour of the local area. If it's particularly rough, filled with valleys and peaks, sound could be reflecting/echoing off of the sides of underwater bluffs or cliffs (and other terrain features) adjacent to site of wreckage. That would have an impact on signal quality, but I am pretty sure the current equipment can account for that. From previous posts, the estimate that bottom is "silty" argues against bottom bounce sound path being available.
2. Chronus provided some interesting links to ocean surveys a few decades old. Are more recent surveys available, or would those be "proprietary" information belonging to a minerals development firm?
3. Recovery effort: what, beyond the CVR/DFDR, would be necessary to recover? As deep as that area looks to be, raising the whole thing seems unnecessary. The salvage/search effort of AF447, and its limitations, informs this question.
4. Related to 3, political/cultural issues in re body recovery? How serious, how expensive? But, as some have discussed earlier from the pathology point of view, would not examining some of the dead provide a clue regarding how all of the people on board died?
Unrelated point: Driver, if your hypothesis is that somebody shot it down, the info released to the public argues against that. If you insist on pursuing a conspiracy theory ... consider how much trouble the Malaysian government have had in dealing with the press. I don't think they have the wherewithal to cover up such a thing.
Beacon emissions are what are being hard. Beacon is still attached to FDR/CVR which is still attached to 9M-MRO.
Concerns:
1. Bottom contour of the local area. If it's particularly rough, filled with valleys and peaks, sound could be reflecting/echoing off of the sides of underwater bluffs or cliffs (and other terrain features) adjacent to site of wreckage. That would have an impact on signal quality, but I am pretty sure the current equipment can account for that. From previous posts, the estimate that bottom is "silty" argues against bottom bounce sound path being available.
2. Chronus provided some interesting links to ocean surveys a few decades old. Are more recent surveys available, or would those be "proprietary" information belonging to a minerals development firm?
3. Recovery effort: what, beyond the CVR/DFDR, would be necessary to recover? As deep as that area looks to be, raising the whole thing seems unnecessary. The salvage/search effort of AF447, and its limitations, informs this question.
4. Related to 3, political/cultural issues in re body recovery? How serious, how expensive? But, as some have discussed earlier from the pathology point of view, would not examining some of the dead provide a clue regarding how all of the people on board died?
Unrelated point: Driver, if your hypothesis is that somebody shot it down, the info released to the public argues against that. If you insist on pursuing a conspiracy theory ... consider how much trouble the Malaysian government have had in dealing with the press. I don't think they have the wherewithal to cover up such a thing.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 10th Apr 2014 at 14:13.
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Lets get it clear, once and for all time. Submarines of whatever color have never been designed for doing what is required in these circumstances.
The French sent L'Emerauld (a nuclear sub) to aid in the initial search for AF447. The first problem that had to be addressed was that their sonar detection was not aligned to the ULB frequency of 37.5kHz. That with some software updates and testing on another Rubic class sub was achieved. Probably too late in the calendar of events.
So, other than making use of their sonar, providing it can address the task, subs are of no particular benefit when comes to searching for aircraft that have become seacraft or any such like UFOs
The French sent L'Emerauld (a nuclear sub) to aid in the initial search for AF447. The first problem that had to be addressed was that their sonar detection was not aligned to the ULB frequency of 37.5kHz. That with some software updates and testing on another Rubic class sub was achieved. Probably too late in the calendar of events.
So, other than making use of their sonar, providing it can address the task, subs are of no particular benefit when comes to searching for aircraft that have become seacraft or any such like UFOs
Modern military submarines have extremely sensitive passive sonar system with direction finding capabilities, so much so that those capabilities are highly classified. Whether the U.S., for example, would allow such resources to be leveraged or if they could even be placed in time is another question.
Ultimately, the decision by any government to deploy a submarine indicates there is at least some thought that the platform might be useful, so the current activity belies your overbroad statement.
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Lets get it clear, once and for all time. Submarines of whatever color have never been designed for doing what is required in these circumstances.
The French sent L'Emerauld (a nuclear sub) to aid in the initial search for AF447. The first problem that had to be addressed was that their sonar detection was not aligned to the ULB frequency of 37.5kHz. That with some software updates and testing on another Rubic class sub was achieved. Probably too late in the calendar of events.
So, other than making use of their sonar, providing it can address the task, subs are of no particular benefit when comes to searching for aircraft that have become seacraft or any such like UFOs.
The French sent L'Emerauld (a nuclear sub) to aid in the initial search for AF447. The first problem that had to be addressed was that their sonar detection was not aligned to the ULB frequency of 37.5kHz. That with some software updates and testing on another Rubic class sub was achieved. Probably too late in the calendar of events.
So, other than making use of their sonar, providing it can address the task, subs are of no particular benefit when comes to searching for aircraft that have become seacraft or any such like UFOs.
Once the ping location has been narrowed down as much as possible and the search moves to sonar searches of the bottom, then the submarine may have a use as a faster way of carrying out a 'quick and dirty' search for metallic debris on the sea bed. But I doubt if their work and results or not will be publicized they are not called the silent service for nothing.
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BBC interview today with Malaysian Minister of Defence/Transport
The BBC interviewer asked the Minister if he was embarrassed that an aircraft had flown undetected across his country. The Minister responded by asking the BBC interviewer whether, had they detected the aircraft and scrambled interceptors, the right thing to do would have been to shoot down a civilian aircraft. The BBC interviewer countered by asking the Minister how he knew it was a civilian aircraft and why, if he knew it was a civilian aircraft, he ordered a search in the Gulf Of Thailand, which is 180* in the opposite direction if the aircraft's flight path. The Minster looked as if he was about to walk out of the interview. As David Cameron (British Prime Minister) recently said (in reference to something unrelated): Muppets!
The link is http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26972045. The interview should still be somewhere on the BBC website.
The link is http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26972045. The interview should still be somewhere on the BBC website.
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Lonewold 50 - We have no real idea of the sea floor conditions in the search zone, apart from that sea floor mapping done decades ago.
This is one of the most unexplored sea bottom regions in the world.
The best we know is from that old mapping - and that is, that the sea floor in the region largely consists of soft, fine, silty clayey sediments.
Think heavy consistency mangrove mud, under 8000-9000psi pressure.
Personally, I'd be deeply concerned about the suction effect of trying to retrieve any wreckage from such material, after having gained extensive experience in trying to recover items buried deeply, in fine silty clayey sediments, on land!
This is one of the most unexplored sea bottom regions in the world.
The best we know is from that old mapping - and that is, that the sea floor in the region largely consists of soft, fine, silty clayey sediments.
Think heavy consistency mangrove mud, under 8000-9000psi pressure.
Personally, I'd be deeply concerned about the suction effect of trying to retrieve any wreckage from such material, after having gained extensive experience in trying to recover items buried deeply, in fine silty clayey sediments, on land!
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An interesting online part of an Australian media web site is providing up-to-date stories on the search. It can be found here: Plane Talking
Ben Sandilands, the journalist, also provides other aviation stories.
Ben Sandilands, the journalist, also provides other aviation stories.
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Sandiego89 suggested that the 777 has an excellent safety record it does. However it does have history of MEC electrical fires which could be the initial cause of this incident. I suggest that he reads 9392 & 9395 to get the background The AAIB report of the US incident in Feb 2007 made several recommendations which were not fully taken up by Boeing & the FAA. Smoke & fire on an a/c can be killers, as such it may have been the trigger for what happened to MH370