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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

Old 10th Apr 2014, 09:45
  #9641 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by phil gollin View Post
The RN sent a nuclear sub - no updates as to where she might be.
Why would we need to know where she is?
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 10:16
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Originally Posted by phil gollin View Post
The RN sent a nuclear sub - no updates as to where she might be.
Lets get it clear, once and for all time. Submarines of whatever color have never been designed for doing what is required in these circumstances.

The French sent L'Emerauld (a nuclear sub) to aid in the initial search for AF447. The first problem that had to be addressed was that their sonar detection was not aligned to the ULB frequency of 37.5kHz. That with some software updates and testing on another Rubic class sub was achieved. Probably too late in the calendar of events.

So, other than making use of their sonar, providing it can address the task, subs are of no particular benefit when comes to searching for aircraft that have become seacraft or any such like UFOs.
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 10:25
  #9643 (permalink)  
 
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Recanted
Malaysia radar reports untrustworthy
Are you saying they lied? Are you saying they created that radar plot they showed the Chinese?

Or are you saying they are unreliable rather than untrustworthy?
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 11:02
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RAAF Orion detects possible signal in hunt for MH370

The Chief Coordinator of the Joint Agency Coordination Centre, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston (Ret'd), has confirmed that whilst conducting an acoustic search this afternoon a RAAF AP-3C Orion aircraft has detected a possible signal in the vicinity of the Australian Defence Vessel Ocean Shield.

“The acoustic data will require further analysis overnight but shows potential of being from a made-made source,” Air Chief Marshal Houston (Ret'd) said.

“I will provide a further update if, and when, further information becomes available.”

http://www.jacc.gov.au/media/release...ril/mr016.aspx

How are the Orion's being used for acoustic searches ?

Last edited by mmurray; 10th Apr 2014 at 11:05. Reason: Found source of story.
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 11:15
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How are the Orion's being used for acoustic searches ?
Angus Houston announced at the press conference on Wednesday that ADF techs have modified sonobouys to detect the pinger ultrasound frequencies. He said that they would be deployed to complement the Ocean Shield's search. The hydrophones will be suspended 1000' deep.
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 11:18
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BBC News - Malaysia plane MH370: Possible new signal in search


A plane searching for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 has detected a possible new underwater signal, Australian officials say.


An Australian P-3 Orion aircraft picked up the signal in the same area where an Australian vessel detected audio pings earlier this week, officials said.


The signal would require further analysis, but could have been from a "man-made source", officials said.
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 11:20
  #9647 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mmurray View Post
How are the Orion's being used for acoustic searches ?
They are using standard sonobuoys (I believe) with 1,000 ft cable length.

The tactic would probably be to 'lay a line' of a given number of buoys, each of which will transmit to the P3 on a discrete frequency for possibly one hour although other times could be set.

After one hour a second line of buoys could be laid a given spacing from the first, and so on so that a curtain is swept through the search area.

What we don't know is what spacing there will be between buoys.

As the ULB is static then once a sonobuoy is in range it will continuously receive the signal which would then be picked up at some point in the monitoring schedule.

The above is of course only one tactic. It is possible they may lay a field of sonobuoys on the premise that the detection possibility will vary with local changes to salinity and temperature.
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 11:27
  #9648 (permalink)  
 
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@mmurray - The Orion carries 84 sonar buoys. The sonar buoys are dropped and release sophisticated underwater hydrophones that unreel on a 1000' (328M) long cable.
The buoy transmits any signal data discovered, back to the Orion for analysis, through a radio system in its surface unit.
The Orions have been re-configured to find the 37.5kHz signal and to contend with fluctuations in the 37.5kHz signal.
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 11:37
  #9649 (permalink)  
 
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Inmarsat Aeronautical Support

Good summary of Inmarsat, it's support for the MH370 search, and potential for positioning information as a safety feature:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/bu...fame.html?_r=0
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 12:59
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Retiring Search Mission Coordinator

Regarding MH370 floating wreckage, if any, the following is from The Australian filed on Jan 6th 2014. "AN eight-metre boat believed lost eight months ago after being capsized by a freak wave off Exmouth Western Australia has been found 4000 nautical miles away, washed up on an island (Mayotte) off the coast of Madagascar."

Doing some maths that works out at approx 0.7kts drift.
MH370 was "lost" on 8th March, it is now 10th April say 33 days ago.
I estimate wreckage has drifted 550Nm and dispersed over a vast area. No doubt some may well end up in Mayotte in due course!
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 13:08
  #9651 (permalink)  
 
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Sonobuoy detection

Refer to my post #9674

It was Commodore Levy (Sp) who mentioned at the Wednesday briefing that the RAAF had modified the aircraft systems to allow the deployment of the AP-3C Orions to undertake a passive search in the area. As an ex fish head the use of a sonobuoy pattern in the ocean to detect and localise a target is one of the first and basic detection methods used in Anti Submarine Warfare for over 50 years.

If the ping stays long enough a series of bearings can be obtained, or they were able to in the older P2 and P3 aircraft equipment that would greatly reduce the area of probability for the final underwater search phase.

What a wonderful effort that is going into this search.
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 14:54
  #9652 (permalink)  
 
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Presumption:
Beacon emissions are what are being hard. Beacon is still attached to FDR/CVR which is still attached to 9M-MRO.

Concerns:
1. Bottom contour of the local area. If it's particularly rough, filled with valleys and peaks, sound could be reflecting/echoing off of the sides of underwater bluffs or cliffs (and other terrain features) adjacent to site of wreckage. That would have an impact on signal quality, but I am pretty sure the current equipment can account for that. From previous posts, the estimate that bottom is "silty" argues against bottom bounce sound path being available.

2. Chronus provided some interesting links to ocean surveys a few decades old. Are more recent surveys available, or would those be "proprietary" information belonging to a minerals development firm?

3. Recovery effort: what, beyond the CVR/DFDR, would be necessary to recover? As deep as that area looks to be, raising the whole thing seems unnecessary. The salvage/search effort of AF447, and its limitations, informs this question.

4. Related to 3, political/cultural issues in re body recovery? How serious, how expensive? But, as some have discussed earlier from the pathology point of view, would not examining some of the dead provide a clue regarding how all of the people on board died?

Unrelated point: Driver, if your hypothesis is that somebody shot it down, the info released to the public argues against that. If you insist on pursuing a conspiracy theory ... consider how much trouble the Malaysian government have had in dealing with the press. I don't think they have the wherewithal to cover up such a thing.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 10th Apr 2014 at 15:13.
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 14:57
  #9653 (permalink)  
 
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Lets get it clear, once and for all time. Submarines of whatever color have never been designed for doing what is required in these circumstances.

The French sent L'Emerauld (a nuclear sub) to aid in the initial search for AF447. The first problem that had to be addressed was that their sonar detection was not aligned to the ULB frequency of 37.5kHz. That with some software updates and testing on another Rubic class sub was achieved. Probably too late in the calendar of events.

So, other than making use of their sonar, providing it can address the task, subs are of no particular benefit when comes to searching for aircraft that have become seacraft or any such like UFOs
I think you understate their potential. Most of the equipment currently involved is not designed for what they are being used for in this search.

Modern military submarines have extremely sensitive passive sonar system with direction finding capabilities, so much so that those capabilities are highly classified. Whether the U.S., for example, would allow such resources to be leveraged or if they could even be placed in time is another question.

Ultimately, the decision by any government to deploy a submarine indicates there is at least some thought that the platform might be useful, so the current activity belies your overbroad statement.
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 15:03
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Originally Posted by mm43 View Post
Lets get it clear, once and for all time. Submarines of whatever color have never been designed for doing what is required in these circumstances.

The French sent L'Emerauld (a nuclear sub) to aid in the initial search for AF447. The first problem that had to be addressed was that their sonar detection was not aligned to the ULB frequency of 37.5kHz. That with some software updates and testing on another Rubic class sub was achieved. Probably too late in the calendar of events.

So, other than making use of their sonar, providing it can address the task, subs are of no particular benefit when comes to searching for aircraft that have become seacraft or any such like UFOs.
I would have thought that the submarine would be told to keep well clear and not distort things while purpose built ULB locators do their work. Not to mention the problems with staying clear of a few kilometers of cable.

Once the ping location has been narrowed down as much as possible and the search moves to sonar searches of the bottom, then the submarine may have a use as a faster way of carrying out a 'quick and dirty' search for metallic debris on the sea bed. But I doubt if their work and results or not will be publicized they are not called the silent service for nothing.
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 15:20
  #9655 (permalink)  
 
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BBC interview today with Malaysian Minister of Defence/Transport

The BBC interviewer asked the Minister if he was embarrassed that an aircraft had flown undetected across his country. The Minister responded by asking the BBC interviewer whether, had they detected the aircraft and scrambled interceptors, the right thing to do would have been to shoot down a civilian aircraft. The BBC interviewer countered by asking the Minister how he knew it was a civilian aircraft and why, if he knew it was a civilian aircraft, he ordered a search in the Gulf Of Thailand, which is 180* in the opposite direction if the aircraft's flight path. The Minster looked as if he was about to walk out of the interview. As David Cameron (British Prime Minister) recently said (in reference to something unrelated): Muppets!

The link is http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26972045. The interview should still be somewhere on the BBC website.
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 15:36
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Lonewold 50 - We have no real idea of the sea floor conditions in the search zone, apart from that sea floor mapping done decades ago.
This is one of the most unexplored sea bottom regions in the world.

The best we know is from that old mapping - and that is, that the sea floor in the region largely consists of soft, fine, silty clayey sediments.
Think heavy consistency mangrove mud, under 8000-9000psi pressure.

Personally, I'd be deeply concerned about the suction effect of trying to retrieve any wreckage from such material, after having gained extensive experience in trying to recover items buried deeply, in fine silty clayey sediments, on land!
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 15:43
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An interesting online part of an Australian media web site is providing up-to-date stories on the search. It can be found here: Plane Talking

Ben Sandilands, the journalist, also provides other aviation stories.
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 15:56
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RMAF deployed search

RMAF deployed search aircraft on March 8, but did not inform anyone - The Malaysian Insider
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 16:04
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Sandiego89 suggested that the 777 has an excellent safety record it does. However it does have history of MEC electrical fires which could be the initial cause of this incident. I suggest that he reads 9392 & 9395 to get the background The AAIB report of the US incident in Feb 2007 made several recommendations which were not fully taken up by Boeing & the FAA. Smoke & fire on an a/c can be killers, as such it may have been the trigger for what happened to MH370
OK Walnut I read it, and yes I think everyone on this forum agrees that smoke and fire can be disasterous, I was just disagreeing with your conclusion in post 9170 that this case "has to be assumed...to be mechanical" based on cases of intentional human action begin rare.
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Old 10th Apr 2014, 16:13
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With respect, this is a non-story Carjockey.
A senior Malaysian government official has revealed that the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) had scrambled search aircraft at 8am on the morning of March 8, soon after Malaysia Airlines had reported that flight MH370 was missing.
Makes sense. Get some eyes up in the air, be already on station as people on the ground try to figure out the situation and where the LKP is to start a search.
In a surprising new development,
Not A New Development. This tidbit is "filling in the blanks of a month old story."
CNN reported today that it was informed by the official that the RMAF search aircraft were scrambled well before authorities had corroborated data indicating that the missing commercial aircraft had turned back westward from its last-known location over the South China Sea.
Per above, they knew something was amiss, and got some planes in the air to have a look. Good job to at least have a look, rather than sitting about twiddling their thumbs.
According to CNN, the source also told them that RMAF did not inform the Department of Civil Aviation nor anyone in the search and rescue operations team until March 11, three days after the aircraft disappeared.
BFD. If they'd found something, doubtless they'd have let someone know.
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