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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

Old 27th Mar 2014, 11:21
  #8341 (permalink)  
 
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Comparing to AF447

It doesn't matter how much 'debris' has been spotted if it's not MH370 its just debris.

25 days into AF447 SAR recovered 50 bodies and 640 items of actual debris.

Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even the ethiopian hijack proves some debris should be prevalent on low impact or hi impact (AF447/Swiss 111)

20 days so far with Zero results. And this is in no way detriment to the brave expert men and women involved in this search.


I hope they have their coordinates right.
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 11:25
  #8342 (permalink)  
 
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Most of the debris in the pictures looks white.
That sometimes happens in b&w images...
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 11:27
  #8343 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone know if it is possible to search back in the reverse direction? Can you search Google for someone who has searched what would be an unusual collection of unrelated things?

Yes, it is and it is rumored that all intelligence organizations do it permanently. You can also buy individually optimized placed ads on the market, based on traced behavior on the net. Just look at the marketing slides of Google Analytics and you get a first guess what is possible.
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 11:40
  #8344 (permalink)  
 
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But the North Atlantic is not the South.

As someone pointed out, the last iceberg anywhere further north than normal
was a huge one off Christchurch, NZ a couple of years back.
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 11:47
  #8345 (permalink)  
 
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Further to what I wrote a few postings ago, I realise if the Satphone was still available, ie it was "pinging" then the flight crew IF alive and wanting to establish contact would have known how to use it. As it was not used then it seems to indicate that this a/c was flying "a la Helios" Probably in Hdg mode, which was the last selection made by the flt crew. So did the crew turn the a/c initially towards Langawi a/f then South towards the r/w?. What I find perplexing is if the a/c went this way WHY? did Malaysian radar not pick it up, it was after all flying back towards central Malaysia and in fact passing abeam of KL. Very odd!! I believe the press should be asking for the complete primary radar trace.
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 11:49
  #8346 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by captains_log View Post
25 days into AF447 SAR recovered 50 bodies and 640 items of actual debris.

Even the ethiopian hijack proves some debris should be prevalent on low impact or hi impact (AF447/Swiss 111)

20 days so far with Zero results.

I hope they have their coordinates right.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Ethiopian Airlines ditched close to a beach in broad daylight; it's exact position was known.
SR111 crashed a few miles offshore. It was heard by local residents and had been in contact with Halifax ATC until a few minutes previously. It's location was known with reasonable accuracy.
Even with AF447, the authorities knew what direction it was heading and the time of it's final ACARS communication; they had a pretty good idea where to start looking.

MH370 is quite different; it's route deviated from the flightplan, there were no communications with the aircraft and it's eventual routing can only be inferred. The search for it's remains is simply not comparable with the examples you quoted.
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 11:52
  #8347 (permalink)  
 
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rubberband2

So here are 3 simple questions:

1 What system & antenna aboard MH370 continued to send the pings?

2 What system & antenna aboard MH370 sent the R-R data engine monitoring data?

3 When did these two data streams cease?
Answers:

1. The onboard SATCOM terminal

2. ACARS via one of the VHF transmitters.

3. The Rolls Royce data engine monitoring transmissions ceased when ACARS was disabled.

The SATCOM pings ceased at 08.11 with a partial 'handshake' shortly after.
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 12:14
  #8348 (permalink)  
 
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Thai Sat pictures

It is written here Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: Thai satellite spots 300 objects - World - CBC News

objects found at about 200km from the French Sat. pictures

On the Bangkok Post published pictures here
Thai satellite has detected about 300 objects floating in the Indian Ocean near search area | Bangkok Post: breakingnews

I would say from what I can read 46.20 S//89 21 and 89 27 and /29E on three different pictures. Hard to read even when zooming.
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 12:20
  #8349 (permalink)  
 
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Two main types of location hardware, one acoustic, the other electromagnetic. Another words one puts out a sound and the other a electromagnetic wave.

Electromagnetic waves for practical purposes do not travel under water. Sound goes really well under water. The pinger is attached to a "black box" (read the one that makes the noise).
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 12:51
  #8350 (permalink)  
 
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Surface flow

Interesting analysis of current surface flow in the SAR area. Seems to be mainly gyre-type.

earth :: an animated map of global wind and weather
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 12:51
  #8351 (permalink)  
 
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Isn't it time to think about starting anew with current technology rather than upgrading old equipment? I read lots of talk about improving ELTs, extending CVR time and other shortcommings.
With todays technology, all the flight information, airframe performance, position, speed, CVR, etc, could simply be uploaded in (almost) real-time via satellite then to ground stations/ATC. Such an change could easily be piggy-backed onto the existing recorders & flight systems and not really require much more than (another) computer and a satellite 'phone. In deed, as many aircraft now have WiFi internet access, all the data could be carried over that link.
There would never arise where the condition & position of any aircraft was not known or traceable to a few miles anywhere in the planet.
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 12:53
  #8352 (permalink)  
 
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Could a 777 pilot tell me what flight path behaviours could be expected if the aircraft was left in the cruise with controls free, no autopilot modes engaged:
1. In normal control law, and
2. In the next level down degraded control law (alternate??).
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 13:06
  #8353 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by zzuf View Post
Could a 777 pilot tell me what flight path behaviours could be expected if the aircraft was left in the cruise with controls free, no autopilot modes engaged:
1. In normal control law, and
2. In the next level down degraded control law (alternate??).
A 777 pilot (of which I am NOT one) would probably tell you that the flight control modes you have mentioned are specific to Airbus aircraft........
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 13:22
  #8354 (permalink)  
 
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McLauchlin is the official Inmarsat spokesman.
I'll just leave these here without comment:

McLauchlin (to Bloomberg):
The plane flew steadily away from the satellite over the equator while pinging, McLaughlin said.
Hunt for Jet Switches to Visual Search as Radar Empty - Bloomberg

McLauchlin(to IBTimes):
"We couldn't say what direction it had gone in, but the plane wasn't standing still because the signals were getting longer, i.e. further in distance from our satellite."
Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 Would Have Been Found If Communications Box Had $10 Upgrade
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 13:51
  #8355 (permalink)  
 
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I, like many others, didn't realise that the ACARS did this.
It doesn't!
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 14:12
  #8356 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Walnut View Post
Further to what I wrote a few postings ago, I realise if the Satphone was still available, ie it was "pinging" then the flight crew IF alive and wanting to establish contact would have known how to use it. As it was not used then it seems to indicate that this a/c was flying "a la Helios" Probably in Hdg mode, which was the last selection made by the flt crew. So did the crew turn the a/c initially towards Langawi a/f then South towards the r/w?. What I find perplexing is if the a/c went this way WHY? did Malaysian radar not pick it up, it was after all flying back towards central Malaysia and in fact passing abeam of KL. Very odd!! I believe the press should be asking for the complete primary radar trace.
No - not in heading mode.

As has been pointed out the aircraft would have deviated quite a long way in heading mode due to the extreme magnetic variation in the South Indian Ocean. For the track flown it is more likely it was to an intended input of a waypoint or a change to fly South in Track mode - both of which would have required deliberate action from someone who understood the FMS/FMC. There were a limited number of people on board MH370 with that knowledge.
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 14:20
  #8357 (permalink)  
 
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I would imagine that it may have been known, "by person or persons unknown", that Primary radar would still be able to track the a/c.
Or perhaps the "person or persons unknown" descended to 5000ft on a westbound heading until they knew that they were clear of military primary radar and then turned south and climbed to cruise altitude. From what I understand, the military radar didn't notice them at the time but the replay showed the flight heading west when they lost contact.
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 14:20
  #8358 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dai_Farr View Post
This will not help MH370, sadly, but...

As Nimrod aircrew, Search and Rescue was part of our business. As aircrew, we were required to undergo survival training of our own, including, not surprisingly, dinghy drills. At least one per year had to be in the sea (as opposed to the RAF Station swimming pool).

We had a variety of "goodies" to play with, including day and night flares. The Night end had a gNurled knob! The day end, when you set it off, produced copious amounts of red smoke. Bl***y annoying when someone pointed it into the dinghy!! No names, no pack drill but his last three was Perks!!!

But dip it on the water, it spread like a dye.

Could Messrs Boeing and Airbus incorporate a big one of these into the fuselage of all commercial aircraft? It could be situated beneath a frangible panel and possibly seawater activated, like McMurdo lights on lifejackets and dinghies, or g-activated. Of course, the thing would have to be subject to regular inspections and servicing. Just picture Heathrow and the surrounding suburbs when Button C gets pressed out of sequence! With Easy Jet, you wouldn't know!!!

Anyway, just a thought.

Cons: Ten days on, is it still visible? 20? 30? The environmental lobby?

How about a detachable, floatable package containing a dye marker and a modified transponder. Transponder only becomes active on receipt of a pre-determined interrogation from a search aircraft, vessel or satellite. Military search aircraft have I band IFF interrogators so this would be easy. Stick such an interrogator on SAR ships and satellites that would/could be used in SAR.
Dai lad - I believe that is nominative determinism

Looks like the engineers are already on the task of bolting the stable door now that MH370 cannot be found...

From the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/bu...tter.html?_r=0

"Outside the U.S., Steps to Track Planes Better"

"PARIS Some foreign regulators and airlines have moved much faster than their American counterparts to adopt more advanced airplane tracking technology."
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 14:25
  #8359 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
Has anybody heard wether one or more of the US strategic submarines are deployed? They would be of great help finding the black box etc.
I've been out of the Navy for a few years.

IF a ballistic missile submarine were deployed in the Indian Ocean, and
IF the US Navy were tasked by the DoD to move it to a position to do some underwater assistance,
the US Government would for sure not tell anyone.
Furthermore, as soon as anyone with acoustic sensing equipment arrived in the area, I'll suggest to you that any submarine of that sort in the area would be ordered to another location.

The whole point of that kind of submarines being on patrol is that Nobody Knows Where They Are outside of a very few folks. Their mission as a nuclear deterrent is serious business, and unlike the rest of naval forces, does not typically do PR and Show the Flag stuff.

Plenty of other assets can be assigned to such assistance missions.
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Old 27th Mar 2014, 14:47
  #8360 (permalink)  
 
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Marine search will take months

Just looking at the marine AIS track of the search vessel 'XUE LONG' shows that she is doing 3 hour E-W tracks then side-stepping 3nm and doing W-E passes. All this at 12kts in seas chopped up by 26kt winds.


So to fully search an area of 600x600nm would take 10,000 hours or 417 days.


The underwater search will also be a slow process, as any underwater towed device will travel even slower.


A faster method would surely be a U2 type spy plane with high definition digital cameras... Do the Orions carry these cameras?
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