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Old 26th Mar 2014, 18:11   #8241 (permalink)
 
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How Inmarsat Hacked Their Data to Find Flight MH370

Detailed scientific explanation of the complex mathematical puzzle solved by Inmarsat engineers surviving on pizza for 6 days/nights while working on the problem.


Physics Buzz: How Inmarsat Hacked Their Data to Find Flight MH370
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 18:45   #8242 (permalink)
 
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Visual/Radar Search

A question for any ex-Nimrod guys on this thread, and forgive me if this has already come up but I'm not going to go through 8300 replies to find out!
Watching the TV reports of the P-3's and others flying the search, some of the pictures seemed to show the aircraft flying pretty low, maybe 500' ish. This struck me a little odd in that unless you flew almost directly over an object you were cutting down everybody's field of vision and that a search from a higher altitude would let you see more area. This, I presume, would also limit a radar search. If the initial objects they were looking for were about 75' in length and possibly semi-submerged I would have thought a search from a higher level looking vertically down rather than horizontally would have made life easier and given more time for the searchers.
What were the recommended procedures when the UK had aircraft that could actually do this kind of thing.
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 19:00   #8243 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman101 View Post
A question for any ex-Nimrod guys on this thread, and forgive me if this has already come up but I'm not going to go through 8300 replies to find out!
It has, recently.

Quote:
Watching the TV reports of the P-3's and others flying the search, some of the pictures seemed to show the aircraft flying pretty low, maybe 500' ish. This struck me a little odd in that unless you flew almost directly over an object you were cutting down everybody's field of vision and that a search from a higher altitude would let you see more area. This, I presume, would also limit a radar search. If the initial objects they were looking for were about 75' in length and possibly semi-submerged I would have thought a search from a higher level looking vertically down rather than horizontally would have made life easier and given more time for the searchers.
What were the recommended procedures when the UK had aircraft that could actually do this kind of thing.
First consideration is to stay below cloud.

A low radar look angle might be better at a longer range.

The media show the aircraft flying low - this makes good video. The aircraft may already have made faster passes at greater heights looking for the larger object - doesn't make good video.

For the small objects Dai Farr explained how they establish best range for a visual and radar detection and the height to fly.
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 19:06   #8244 (permalink)
 
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Pontius Navigator
Long endurance not long range

True, however a Predator Sea Avenger of a ship with approx 20 hours endurance could be useful with the right sensor equipment fitted.
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 19:13   #8245 (permalink)
 
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Passed out pilots don't switch off systems.
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 19:30   #8246 (permalink)


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Soundman

I'm not an ex Nimrod, but ex 771 819 Seaking SAR.

The reason is that it is really really difficult to spot things from the air at any distance.

We used to carry out Royal Navy Sea Drills in Falmouth Harbour for training aircrew in sea survival once a week. The "casualties" would be in single seat life rafts. These are coffin sized and dayglo orange sitting up about 60cm above sea level.
Even in smooth inshore waters it is astonishing how close you have to be to see them. We would fly out from RNAS Culdrose looking for them but often had to just fly towards the tender that looked after them just to get close enough to ID. This was on smooth inshore water.

Yes, if you flew higher in the P3 your horizon would be greater, but the cleared swath of sea checked would be no wider, and slightly less well checked.

To give an idea, in a Seaking I would expect to be flying a 60kts or less and 200ft or less if looking for small objects

Last edited by Tourist; 26th Mar 2014 at 20:17.
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 19:31   #8247 (permalink)
 
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LoneWolf_50

Predator Sea Avenger, but as Pontius pointed out what assets are available in that area to launch it, only a thought for more on station search time.
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 20:08   #8248 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman101 View Post
A
Watching the TV reports of the P-3's and others flying the search, some of the pictures seemed to show the aircraft flying pretty low, maybe 500' ish.

Do you really think there's a TV crew out there 4 hours off shore taking pictures of the aircraft while they are searching?
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 20:23   #8249 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
The two arguments go against each other:
1. Big fully loaded aircraft "crashes" and breaks apart
2. Practically no debris located
I reckon they are both pretty much spot on to be honest.

No counter argument for either against the other.
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 20:28   #8250 (permalink)
 
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Improving the inmarsat data.

To improve the precision of the inmarsat data two things could be done:

1. Hand the data over to some radio astronomers. Their toolset for dealing with signals is outstanding.

2. Fly a calibration flight. Charter a long range bizjet with the same class of sat terminal fitted. Communicate over the bird throughout the flight down the calculated MH370 path. Capture this data and process it. Refine the MH370 calcs based on this.
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 20:46   #8251 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Tourist`s post "For those that think a 777 could not land in one piece on the water ".

The Hudson glider experience proves it can be done, but and that`s a big BUT, subject to:
Strictly the A321 did not end up in 1 piece, the lower aft fuselage was pretty much torn off.

However, I am not sure the question is whether it can be in "1 piece" or not. It is whether it will remain intact enough to sink without much trace, or whether it will disintegrate to such an extent that light debris, even bodies, will remain floating to be found.

I have little doubt that a 777 could be ditched without the cabin (where the light stuff is) disintegrating, and thus sinking without trace. Whether that happened here ???
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 20:52   #8252 (permalink)
 
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RE: Improving the Inmarsat data. by UnreliableSource

From TMF Associates MSS blog which is one of the links previously posted.

"Last week Inmarsat performed an analysis of pings received from other aircraft flying in the Indian Ocean region to confirm that this effect is consistent across all of these planes and therefore concluded that MH370 must have been to the south of the satellite at the time of the last ping, not to its north."

So, I think this in essence "calibrated" the data and the mathematical analysis.
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 20:57   #8253 (permalink)
 
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How big is an escape slide?

I'm not connected with the aviation industry other than as a frequent passenger and a fascination with anything aeronautic so please excuse what may be a basic question.

How big are the escape slides on the 777 and similar aircraft when fully inflated?

Just wondering if perhaps these may be what is being seen from the satellites and they are getting blown about making them hard to locate from the surface.
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 21:35   #8254 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
If the plane had broken up, there would be 'lots of lifejackets floating around, as they inflate when they hit water'.
HIGHLY unlikely to have been in one piece. Apart from that most of the bits that float will not float as in sit on the surface, they will float at or near the surface, but submerged!!

The lifejackets do not inflate automatically!!!
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 21:41   #8255 (permalink)
 
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ABC news Australia reports the 120 objects are within a 400 sq kilometre area.

Given the cloud cover there are/were probably more items in the area.
So the density distribution could be 1 piece per 2 square kilometres.
The air search should find something given density in this field? Or would the area have expanded greatly whilst drifting since the images were taken?
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 21:41   #8256 (permalink)
 
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Radar satellites

I have spent a fair amount of time going through Tomnod images, and there is a lot of clouds out there.

There are a large number of radar satellites out there, mostly operated by government bodies (DOD, NASA, Canada, etc.) but also a few private companies. These have resolutions good enough to spot some of this flotsam. They can be operated day and night, and can see through the clouds. Anyone hear any rumors of these being used over the search areas?
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 21:44   #8257 (permalink)
 
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tomnod frame 241716

I tagged the frame for the group of suspect bits lower right.
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 21:45   #8258 (permalink)
 
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People who don't go to sea are learning just how much junk there is in the oceans now. You are never out of sight of garbage, even in the Southern Ocean.
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 21:56   #8259 (permalink)
 
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Odds of aviation halon bottles floating ashore ?

Actually I'm asking about the frequency of (emptied ?) commercial aviation (including Boeing) fire suppression bottles floating ashore, in this particular case in the northern Maldives. Coincidence ? I'm not so sure, despite all the emphasis on the southern arc theory and the fact that after the sighting of numerous objects, none of these have so far been related to MH370. In particular also after having re-read the initial official reports that MH 370 disappeared from military radar heading in a westerly direction towards India.
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 21:58   #8260 (permalink)


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Albatros

Do you really think that two very old aircraft are a more valid comparison than Sully in the river?

The 777 is a tank as has been proved by various recent accidents.

The airframe does not have to be immaculate to sink with little trace, merely hold onto its larger parts (wings/tail) and the pressure hull must be sufficiently intact to retain all the poor buggers inside plus cushions. That is not outwith the bounds of possibility.

p.s. Can the people who keep saying that water is as hard as concrete at speed please stop being silly. It gets no harder at any speed. It is still water. If you fire a pistol into water the bullets penetrate a couple of feet. Try that with concrete.
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acars, crash, elt, hf links, malaysian, mh370, missing, pingers, plane, vhf

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