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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

Old 23rd Mar 2014, 15:49
  #7521 (permalink)  
 
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That doesn't answer the question as to whether or not they "automatically" go to standby while selecting a new code.
Yes, they do go into standby as soon as the code selector knobs or buttons are active. In the case of the keypad, it releases as soon as the 4th digit is entered, and the rotary has a 3-5 sec timeout.
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 15:49
  #7522 (permalink)  
 
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So now the previous data that the turn inputs into the FMS that supposedly happened before the final voice transmission may not have happened after all.
What difference would that make...? You can turn the jet WITHOUT inputs to the FMS.
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 16:00
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It didn't crash into the South China Sea. The plane still had power at 8:11 when the last "ping" occurred. You can't make a connection with the Inmarsat satellite without having power. That is, unless you're postulating that the plane remained intact with power and then disappeared below the surface.
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 16:03
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Capt Kremin,

excellent post. Probably the unpublished ping arcs fit quite exactly your 197 solution. Would that be the HDG to return from IGARI to KUL ??

That may be the reason why all SAR is concentrated south.

Tim Vasquez has something identified, that could be a contrail belonging to the HDG 197 solution. INHO a must read:

Investigation of a possible "southern arc" contrail from Malaysia Flight 370 - 8 March 2014 - Weather Graphics

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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 16:12
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I've listened to most of the recordings for 3/7 and 3/8, and can't find that flight on Kuala Lumpar / WMKK ATC. Am I not looking in the right place or is it gone? I remember that the original news report said it "lost contact" with Subang (or Sepang?), so he took off under WMKK who passed him to that SZB and then contact was lost or? I couldn't find ATC for the "Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah Airport" aka SZB.
MH370 departed to the East. Live ATC only covers North & West Sectors.
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 16:29
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Although if a country under the possible northern flight path had not wanted to say 'Our Air Defense Radar in that sector went u/s 3 months ago and we can't afford to repair it right now' then 'Our military radar didn't detect MH370' is an entirely accurate but also entirely useless answer...
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 16:45
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If MH370 wreckage found in Southern Indian ocean.....

Excellent post. A/P systems mode knowledge plus navigation basic principles create a very convincing case. Thank you.
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 16:49
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oldoberon:-

The fact that it was 370 was confirmed at a mid week conference by the minister based on a variety of data, so your sleepy byes argument is like most of your argument....
I disagree....the Chief of Air Force when asked by the media at that time, if the Air Force Radar Operator saw the air turn-back (i.e. in real-time), answered "No! We only saw a recording!"
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 16:51
  #7529 (permalink)  
 
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Any chance the INS would have become primary navigation means due to a loss of GPS? Flying ref ADIRU only?

Last edited by MarkJJ; 23rd Mar 2014 at 17:05.
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 16:57
  #7530 (permalink)  
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French satellite debris

On French radio a spokeperson from the Sat company operating the satellite in question said that what they saw was a cluster of debris, but that included " a wooden pallet and some tighting ropes of different colors "...

If this is true , the international show will have to go on a little longer...

As to debating if a transponder go stand by automatically when changing squawks, what is the relevance ? It will not tell you if the aircraft is there , or in the North arc , or in the forest of an isolated island somewhere .
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 17:06
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Nose wheel fire???

unlikely..no nose wheel brakes... so very low probability for heating....why fire?
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 17:06
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....an entirely accurate but also entirely useless answer...
Probably drafted by a room full of lawyers...
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 17:11
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I've listened to most of the recordings for 3/7 and 3/8, and can't find that flight on Kuala Lumpar / WMKK ATC. Am I not looking in the right place or is it gone? I remember that the original news report said it "lost contact" with Subang (or Sepang?), so he took off under WMKK who passed him to that SZB and then contact was lost or? I couldn't find ATC for the "Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah Airport" aka SZB.
Scan through previous posts and you will find that the aircraft was on another frequency than the one archived.
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 17:12
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INS... primary mode

@MarkJJ
ny chance the INS would have become primary navigation means due to a loss of GPS? Flying ref ADIRU only?
No INS exists onboard... IRS exists... and incase GPS signals are shielded or unable for any reason... it will automatically revert to IRS as a primary source mode of navigation. but RNAV means of terrestrial aids such as VOR DME will be used to more accurately position fix.

Last edited by aviator1970; 23rd Mar 2014 at 17:14. Reason: Spellings
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 17:13
  #7535 (permalink)  
 
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Loss of power - steady stall

One question from an engineer, and to the aerodynamicists here:
If we assume the aircraft ran out of fuel, but was correctly trimmed in the final stages of the flight, the aircraft would stall from high altitude.
If we also assume that there were no crew inputs at this time of the flight, and because commercial airplanes are stable by design, I believe the aircraft would have started descending and entered some sort of small amplitude (due to stable design) phugoid mode at speeds close to Vs and kept in that kind of mode until reaching sea level.
What would be the aircraft attitude upon reaching sea level (order of magnitude of the pitch angle?)
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 17:18
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hamster3null replied:

current search is based on the premise that the debris drifted substantially to the southeast in two weeks since the crash. They are searching way outside the arcs by now.
Yes, but many posts ago, the mechanism for excluding (western) parts of the 40 degree 00:11 UTC ping arch wasn't clear. With a big search going on this far east, MH370's previous (yet unknown) pings would appear a good reason why.

The speculation about piggybacking another flight to exit SE Asia for a sustained period of time can also be put to rest as the possible candidates flew on more westerly and therefore ping-incompatible headings.
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 17:19
  #7537 (permalink)  
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As we have said before, the 777 won't stall. the FBW won't let it. And even if both engines fail, the RAT will provide power to autopilot and hydraulics. It will decend at a shallow angle, basically.
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 17:21
  #7538 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by aviator1970
but RNAV means of terrestrial aids such as VOR DME will be used to more accurately position fix.
Which of course are limited to line of sight or roughly around 200 miles maximum. They also need operator input.

Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 23rd Mar 2014 at 18:03.
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 17:23
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Just when you thought you'd finally drowned it, the issue of fire just keeps on springing up

So, for the benefit of non-pilots, let's talk about fire - from the point of view of this former 747-400 commander's experience.

Cargo Fire:
The T7 is fully equipped with cargo fire detection and suppression for some 30 minutes or so (T7 drivers will fill in the number).
I've had a cargo fire warning. It rattles your eyeballs and soaks you with adrenaline. You can't ignore it. You do the drill and fire the bottles, put out a Mayday, ask for radar assistance, point the aircraft at a runway and get going down (in whichever order is appropriate, or all at once). It's just like we regularly practice in the sim. Mine turned out to be a false warning - but still......
In the position of MH370 there would have been radar assistance, a choice of runways within the fire suppression time available supported by the familiarity of being near base.
There is no way a cargo fire caused the loss of MH370, with no Mayday call, plenty of assistance available and time in hand to land.

Wheel bay fire:
If there had been a fire in the wheel bay the crew would have known about it from the sensors immediately after take-off. They would not have got as far as leaving departure control without asking for a return to land. Let's put this one to bed.

Flight-deck fire:
If a fire occurs behind a flight-deck instrument panel you know about it immediately. From experience, you smell it and see the smoke long before it takes hold. This type of fire can be difficult to deal with but there are extinguishers and axes/jemmies to hand. Oxygen masks on, Mayday, descent and diversion by the handling pilot while the other crew member(s) deal with the problem, is the response. There may be loss of some services depending on which panel is affected but at the end of the day the handling pilot can just take out the autopilot and fly the aeroplane, for which radar assistance resulting from that Mayday call is most helpful. Provided the fire is controlled to keep the smoke down and a runway is within reach there is no reason why a safe landing should not result.
For the reasons given for Cargo fire, a flight-deck fire did not cause the loss of MH370.

Electrics Compartment fire:
I've experienced smoke in the electrics bay. The compartment has a high airflow for cooling purposes and we smelt it on the flight-deck immediately, before there was any visible smoke. A quick check of the flight-deck panels, a zoom out into the cabin to check for smoke. a call to the galley-slaves to check the galley equipment - and it became immediately apparent where it must be coming from. In my case the appropriate CBs tripped themselves and the problem solved itself but in a more severe case it would be little different to the flight-deck fire case as above, except for some small extra difficulty of access (although our engineer was down there like a mole in a hole).
For the same reasons an electrics bay fire did not cause the loss of MH370.

Cabin fire:
Causes can be many. I've experienced a small furnishings fire (caused by an illegal cigarette we think). Smoke identified the source long before fire took hold. The cabin crew were on to it straight away with more extinguishers carried to the scene than I thought existed on the aircraft!
I've also had an electrical cabin fire. That was more difficult to locate as the smoke was distributed by the recirc fans. It eventually scorched a side panel revealing itself and the cabin crew pounced upon it relishing, it seemed, the opportunity to use the axe to get to it! We were already on approach by then but I'm confident that had we been in the middle of the Atlantic we would have dealt with it just as safely.

Incendiary devices:
In the cargo hold it becomes just another cargo fire, unless it is also an explosive device, in which case case the aircraft either breaks up (which we know MH370 did not do initially) or it may cause a decompression as well as a fire. In the latter case the fire suppression systems would likely be rendered inoperative or ineffective - clearly a more critical case. But pilots practice loss of cabin pressurisation drills frequently. If this had happened and the aircraft survived the initial explosion and the emergency descent they were still within range of a runway and they would have declared an emergency. Pilots do not forget to put on oxygen masks. In this case you just need a closer runway - and MH370 had one.
In the cabin, it's just a bigger fire. Trust me, the cabin crew will be there with extinguishers within seconds. There are more than enough extinguishers around.
If it is also an explosive device then we are back to the cargo hold explosion situation as above. The cabin crew may be stunned and react slowly but the flight crew will descend the aircraft and declare an emergency. There is no evidence that happened in this case.

The point I am making is that all fires on aircraft can be dealt with by the crew. There is ample equipment on board and sufficient crew members trained to use it. The problem is not in dealing with the initial fire but whether there is a runway close enough to use while the fire remains suppressed. That is what causes hull losses due to fire in flight. In the case of MH370 there was a choice of places to go and a radar controller to talk to and get help from.
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 17:27
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@SOPS

Thanks for the answer. I'm not familiar with the T7 protection laws and only have basic knowledge of Airbus ones. So stall protection is not lost even if engines are not running on T7.

Could the 'shallow' descent also mean survivable aircraft attitude and speed upon reaching sea level?
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