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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:18
  #6881 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Lancair70
Is this data [from Naval Warships] saved at all ?

That's of course if there were any Naval ships in the area at all.
Data can be saved for post-exercise or post-operation analysis. The key question though is their presence.

First, it would only be an anti-air war capable ship that would have such an air guard radar. Data recording is routine in maritime patrol aircraft and airborne early warning aircraft and, if replicated in a surface ship, could therefore be recovered.

The key point though is the presence of a naval ship, possible in the Bay of Bengal and unlikely in the southern ocean, and whether that ship was an air defence vessel. That is highly unlikely.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:18
  #6882 (permalink)  
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During the PC the MAS CEO was questioned about these batteries packages. Answer was that it was properly packed and NOT considered dangerous/hazardous as per ICAO standards.
That is the biggest admission yet. I'm sorry but all Lithium ion batteries UN3840 are categorized as dangerous goods. But different quantities and sizes are declared permissible dangerous goods. Either carry on by pax or in devices for carry and checked. Even certain lithium ion batteries by 100wh cannot be checked on.
If these batteries were placed in the cargo hold of MH370 in 5kg packs they are permissible under ICAO for pax aircraft. But the Airline must have a DG on pax aircraft policy.
35kg packs are Cargo Aircraft Only.
Honestly these new Lithium Ion battery rules that came out this year can be very confusing.
Irrespective the ICAO Drill for UN 3840 is 9FZ was upgraded from 9FL last year. But is this change enough. I think these batts should be banned from all pax flights. Except for carry on reason, laptop etc.
Once you put the new Z code on something and put in a cargo hold. Nothing will put out the fire. Seems insane to put this on a pax aircraft and also for that matter a cargo aircraft. A cargo aircraft can still crash into a village.
http://www.icao.int/safety/Dangerous...P.076.4.en.pdf
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:19
  #6883 (permalink)  
 
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I was not saying that the flight in question has a 3-man crew. I was merely saying the behaviour described by SLF is 'typical' of a 3-man op. On a 2man crew the 'usual' method is controlled rest on the flight deck, not outside of it.

It's a valid question but the media have already started the lynch mob, let's not give them any more to start with until we can verify if it did in fact happen.... unlikely, I might add...
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:19
  #6884 (permalink)  
 
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Hunter58,

We are on the same page then.

"Limited Quantity" I think is the term - been a while though
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:20
  #6885 (permalink)  
 
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I know that this has been posted before but I can't find the answer.

As I understand it, the so called 'black box' has a loop system and will show only a certain period of time prior to a crash.

Obviously if only a few hours are contained there will be no information about the time of the event some (assumed) 7-8 hours prior to termination.

Does anyone have a figure for the time contained in the black box?
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:20
  #6886 (permalink)  
 
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Hunter58

DGR is DGR. It always qualifies. The quantity allowed on board is a different subject.
I must say lithium cells in forms and quantities that are prone to chain reactions are a risk I'd classify even above live ammunition. That said, single packed cells, perhaps as a part of some small electronic device is not very likely to cause that nasty fire that cannot be put out. They would still qualify as DGR though.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:21
  #6887 (permalink)  
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IATA Lithium Battery Guidance Document
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:28
  #6888 (permalink)  
 
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lithium ion

Lets just clarify we are talking about lithium-ion (rechargeable) as opposed to lithium which are single discharge (disposables)

And after the UPS crash i realised thanks to many very informative people on here just how dangerous this can be as cargo.

Read here for more info...imho it shouldn't be travelling as air freight.

Managing the lithium (ion) battery fire risk - Industrial Fire Journal - Fire & Rescue - Hemming Group Ltd
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:34
  #6889 (permalink)  
 
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They may not be dangerous as properly packed cargo... but imho they are inherently dangerous as the average Joe does not see them as such...

case in point... a few years ago (before i knew better) ordered a couple of spare batteries for my Olympus camera. I was actually shocked when they arrived in a manila padded envelope marked as 'gift'. Not even isolated terminals and freely clinking around the bag.... I emailed the seller and they could not have cared less so I filed a report with eBay and explained that they needed to have a clear instruction on sale/shipping of these batteries.

Just think how many of these little 'gifts' are flying in your cargo hold daily
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:42
  #6890 (permalink)  
 
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@funfly
Does anyone have a figure for the time contained in the black box?
Blackbox can contain a minimum of 25hrs of flight data, apparently. However a CVR (cockpit voice recorder) can record upto 2hrs of audio.

Refer to link: What Is a Black Box?: Air Crash Investigation - National Geographic Channel - UK
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:43
  #6891 (permalink)  
 
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Although I linked to that particular article, there are other news organisations that have asked the same questions about Australia's Over the Horizon Radar, including Bloomberg.

UK, AUS, NZ , Canadian and US intelligence surveillance systems are pretty much run as one system, centralized and guided by the US.

The US/Australian OTH radar is a joint operation and therefore it wouldn't even be a case of the Australian "handing over" information. As with GCHQ, this kind of intel is live streamed and patched into the US's global surveillance system.

Australia's OTH radar is not switched on or pointed in any direction, it is on permanently and covers the entire area as shown on the map I posted. One of its prime uses is as a missile defense detector and will track any moving object within its zone of detection.This zone of detection goes out at least 3000 km from the coastline of Australia, and most defence anaylists agree probably quite a bit more.

A large commercial airliner flying within this zone would automatically be detected, especially if it is flying over open water.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:47
  #6892 (permalink)  
 
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CVR: last 2 hours

FDR: last 24 hours
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:47
  #6893 (permalink)  
 
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Mariner, perhaps it wasn't very clear but my point was I don't think they are very often packed properly. If shipped according to the regulation it minimises the risk but yes, it is still there (UPS6 anyone?)

Problem is all the joe publics out there who haven't a clue and then worse the freight forwarders who couldn't give a toss and just throw it on without honest documentation. I've worked with freight enough to know that there are a huge amount of either deliberately misleading descriptions or ignorance as to what constitutes a DG by air... Commercial freight is one thing but regular mail going on pax aircraft is a can of worms I hate to think about...
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:48
  #6894 (permalink)  
 
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Third hand quote accuracy???

I'd suggest that those quotes on all sides are likely very inaccurate, and were taken out of context,.... and were not even properly understood in a relevant context by the recipient? Usually only by finding the aircraft remains, and examining key components such as the E2 and E3 racks or their components, or perhaps information from definitive implicit or explicit sources such as a QAR, CVR, or DFDR, could a useful assertion, let alone a conclusion like that even be reliably made. Otherwise, those kinds of statements at this stage generally reflect a significant media misunderstanding of simple restatements of design objectives and requirements, or certification assumptions or criteria, and not an investigation fact.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:51
  #6895 (permalink)  
 
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The L-I theory

I would highly recommend reading the posts at

Lithium-Ion Batteries Linked to Airplane Fires - Slashdot

They seem to know what they are talking about.
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:55
  #6896 (permalink)  
 
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Inmarsat interview -- VIDEO

Interview by Fox's Megan Kelly with Chris McLaughlin, the VP from Inmarsat, regarding the pings and timeline of furnishing the data to the investigation. This is a great, factual interview, and the VP is clear and refuses to speculate beyond his expertise.

Satellite company official speaks out on tracking missing jet after it lost contact | Fox News
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:55
  #6897 (permalink)  
 
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Yep the ELT g-swithc activates on an acceleration of 3.5 ft/s, and they have a battery life of only 30 days upon activation.
A tad pedantic yes .. but ft/s is a velocity. Ft/s/s is an acceleration. I'm not sure where the 3.5 value comes from (a pedant would label it as -3.5) but it seems awfully small to me. At that rate it would take some 28.5 seconds to decelerate from 100 ft/s to a complete stop. That would mean the ELT would activate upon normal braking after a landing.

(Edit to correct time to stop)
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 11:58
  #6898 (permalink)  
 
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Afterthought: the a/c did have about 30 or so high tech people on board who collectively would have had a significant amount of L-I batteries either in cabin or in hold or a mixture.
You don't need techies on board for that. Just think of all the laptops, smartphones, tablets and the like that pax carry with themselves in any normal flight. Nearly all of them have Li-Ion battery packs.

Anyway, it's extremely unfrequent that they ignite/explode, but if that happened in cabin (i.e. when stowed in the luggage compartments together with coats), there would be a problem...
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:01
  #6899 (permalink)  
 
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CVR/DFDR Data Storage

Hi All,

Reading your comments on CVR/DFDR data storage capability triggered an obvious question, not directly related to this event: In our high tech, electronic world with unbelievably huge, lightweight, super-fast data storage devices why on earth an advanced "electronic" aircraft has this two hour limit on voice storage???? Just to log a couple of voice tracks from the cockpit. Ridiculous!
(I could recall many events/accidents in recent aviation history where this limiatation was a negative factor in the investigation process.)

Cheers,
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Old 21st Mar 2014, 12:02
  #6900 (permalink)  
 
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Again, there is no evidence to suggest batteries, or anything else in the hold for that matter had anything to do with this event.
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