Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
After AF 447, two years to find the FDR and CVR, this must surely be a pivotal time to re-appraise FDRs. If pax can phone home from the A/c anywhere in the world, and connect to the internet, its high time that FDR data (including GPS/IRS position) was streamed via ACARS using satcom. to a ground station.
Technology and electronics has moved on from the FDRs of old so lets have a complete revision of FDR requirements. MH370, like AF 447, HAS to be found, but is going to be one helluva job.
.........and no I am NOT an amateur, 10,000 hrs plus in the LHS of various ETOPS and non ETOPS Boeings, a former company FSO and twice vice chairman of the UK Flight Safety Committee, tells me that we HAVE to change thinking AND equipment after these two incidents. The technology is there, we need to embrace it.
Will MH370 be found ? well a BSAA Tudor, Star Tiger, disappeared without trace and another BSAA aircraft, a Lancastrian IIRC, was not found for almost 50 years. (yes I know things have moved on BUT !!
The Indian Ocean is very large and very deep.
I am not expecting a swift resolution to this bizarre situation.
Technology and electronics has moved on from the FDRs of old so lets have a complete revision of FDR requirements. MH370, like AF 447, HAS to be found, but is going to be one helluva job.
.........and no I am NOT an amateur, 10,000 hrs plus in the LHS of various ETOPS and non ETOPS Boeings, a former company FSO and twice vice chairman of the UK Flight Safety Committee, tells me that we HAVE to change thinking AND equipment after these two incidents. The technology is there, we need to embrace it.
Will MH370 be found ? well a BSAA Tudor, Star Tiger, disappeared without trace and another BSAA aircraft, a Lancastrian IIRC, was not found for almost 50 years. (yes I know things have moved on BUT !!
The Indian Ocean is very large and very deep.
I am not expecting a swift resolution to this bizarre situation.
Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 16th Mar 2014 at 19:43.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 76
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Letest news repots informs us investigations are being conducted with emphasis on the greater probability of unlawful interference with the flight. The focus on the pilots indicates the reasonable assumption, they alone posessed the technical competency for a reasonable succes to attempt and avoid detection. Many of us on this forum, with knowledge of the area and sufficient flying experience, particularly those with a military background, may be well able to postulate how they would undertake such a flight/mission and avoid detection. This may be best left untold on this forum, for obvious reasons. I do however feel confident that this could not escaped the Malaysian authorities attention. In extending such line of thought, I am somehat puzzled that the search area has been extended North West to cover overland routes. On my part I consider that the obvious route to avoid detection with a reasonable chance of success would be the Indian Ocean. I would consider that the likelihood of the pilots being involved in taking the flight on a suicidal course is relatively small compared with a third party forcing the diversion of the flight on to such a course. The fact that the aircraft failed to make land fall must suggest that had it been a hijack attempt, it simply failed.
I await with interest to hear of the revalations regarding the enquiries being made into all the passangers backgrounds. If these also result in the elimination of likely candidates, then the only explanation must be a series of systems malfunctions and crew incapacitation through smoke and hypoxia.
Has there been any reports of the cargo manifest.
I await with interest to hear of the revalations regarding the enquiries being made into all the passangers backgrounds. If these also result in the elimination of likely candidates, then the only explanation must be a series of systems malfunctions and crew incapacitation through smoke and hypoxia.
Has there been any reports of the cargo manifest.
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: California
Age: 63
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ACARS tidy shutdown sequence
5.2.3.6 System Management Traffic
The data channels carry the following data related to the management of Inmarsat system:
Logon management data: this includes traffic generated by the system logon procedure, which includes in particular logon and logon/logoff acknowledgment SUs sent over the R-channel, logon confirm and logon/logoff acknowledgment SUs sent over the P-channel.
The data channels carry the following data related to the management of Inmarsat system:
Logon management data: this includes traffic generated by the system logon procedure, which includes in particular logon and logon/logoff acknowledgment SUs sent over the R-channel, logon confirm and logon/logoff acknowledgment SUs sent over the P-channel.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: entre ici et là
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote (luoto):
Last night Indian newspapers suggested not all radar units were "awake" (I posted a link). The longer this sad, sorry affair goes on the harder it feels to accept any official statement on face value. I am not usually paranoid, but there is a feeling of "positioning" about this, at a level much higher than pax and crew.
Agree: Australia, which has highly sophisticated radar, interestingly said the same thing and for the same reason -costs; its expensive (really? -why build it in the first place?). I find it hard to believe that military radar does not operate 24/7 -airborne threats only show up during business hours? I agree with Glueball that aircraft sans ident at non-threat altitudes would be routinely ignored (someone else's problem, not mine) on a normal night, however think that would change once a long haul passenger craft goes missing with its transponder off. Also I find it a bit incredible that with all the spook sats up in the sky watching this area that the only info for determining possible flight paths came from a commercial sat. The Malacca Strait is a critical shipping route for China, hard to believe they would not have sats looking at it 24/7. And the U.S. of course looks at everything -this neighborhood is about midway between Guam and Diego Garcia; once the U.S. became aware a T7 with about 7 hours of fuel had gone AWOL here alert levels would have been raised a bit (unless like India and Australia supposedly did, took the weekend off -hardly). Point is I believe it is known where this plane went and what happened to it but it is no one's interest for this to become public. We are being fed a story to lay the groundwork for the convenient explanation. Either this plane will never be found (southern arc) or wreckage which could possibly be MH370 will be spotted somewhere around 8,000 meters in a totally inaccessible area of the Himalayas (northern arc). Depends on which story they can make sound more credible; suicide mission or hi-jack. Personally I do not buy at all the 'rogue pilot on a meticulously planned suicide mission' theory. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Last night Indian newspapers suggested not all radar units were "awake" (I posted a link). The longer this sad, sorry affair goes on the harder it feels to accept any official statement on face value. I am not usually paranoid, but there is a feeling of "positioning" about this, at a level much higher than pax and crew.
Agree: Australia, which has highly sophisticated radar, interestingly said the same thing and for the same reason -costs; its expensive (really? -why build it in the first place?). I find it hard to believe that military radar does not operate 24/7 -airborne threats only show up during business hours? I agree with Glueball that aircraft sans ident at non-threat altitudes would be routinely ignored (someone else's problem, not mine) on a normal night, however think that would change once a long haul passenger craft goes missing with its transponder off. Also I find it a bit incredible that with all the spook sats up in the sky watching this area that the only info for determining possible flight paths came from a commercial sat. The Malacca Strait is a critical shipping route for China, hard to believe they would not have sats looking at it 24/7. And the U.S. of course looks at everything -this neighborhood is about midway between Guam and Diego Garcia; once the U.S. became aware a T7 with about 7 hours of fuel had gone AWOL here alert levels would have been raised a bit (unless like India and Australia supposedly did, took the weekend off -hardly). Point is I believe it is known where this plane went and what happened to it but it is no one's interest for this to become public. We are being fed a story to lay the groundwork for the convenient explanation. Either this plane will never be found (southern arc) or wreckage which could possibly be MH370 will be spotted somewhere around 8,000 meters in a totally inaccessible area of the Himalayas (northern arc). Depends on which story they can make sound more credible; suicide mission or hi-jack. Personally I do not buy at all the 'rogue pilot on a meticulously planned suicide mission' theory. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lucid, sane, comprehensive overview imo
Near the top of this page, MH370 summary one 'rcair1' has posted a long and detailed summary of what is known, what is maybe, and what is insane. I like it.
Last edited by poorjohn; 16th Mar 2014 at 20:03.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 81
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Searching this thread
I do not know what luck you have had with using the search function on this thread, but for me, it has been inoperative.
Fortunately there is an excellent alternative: Google is keeping this thread well indexed. You can structure Google searches as follows:
Supposing you want to search for references to NYT.
Then structure your search as:
<nyt site:http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/535538-malaysian-airlines-mh370-contact-lost>
Just remove the <> part of the above for your search. (Had to do that to keep it from being truncated.)
For a different search term, you can use the above string and substitute your search term for NYT in the above example.
Maybe we can cut down on some of the repetitive question asking.
Fortunately there is an excellent alternative: Google is keeping this thread well indexed. You can structure Google searches as follows:
Supposing you want to search for references to NYT.
Then structure your search as:
<nyt site:http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/535538-malaysian-airlines-mh370-contact-lost>
Just remove the <> part of the above for your search. (Had to do that to keep it from being truncated.)
For a different search term, you can use the above string and substitute your search term for NYT in the above example.
Maybe we can cut down on some of the repetitive question asking.
Join Date: May 2013
Location: home
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What happened to the report of suitcase debris in the Malacca Strait from earlier today? Or have I missed something?
777 I work on do not use chemical oxygen generators for passengers
Is the passenger bottled air regulated, does it have a defined endurance once activated, regardless of the number of passengers who are using it?
Is the figure of 2 hour endurance for flight crew in the ballpark?
I assume flight crew O2 is regulated, does it then follow that the 2 hour figure would double to 4 hours, if in use by only one crew member instead of two?
exactly, the oxygen is on a gaseous ring main and the portable oxy bottles last at least 60 minutes depending on if you are on hi or lo flow.
Mickjoebill
Last edited by mickjoebill; 16th Mar 2014 at 20:40.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Arizona
Age: 76
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tracking an aircraft - doppler
The older days (pre 406.25 MHz) the position of downed aircraft was with the the Doppler shift of 243MHz signal,,, if my memory serves me right... It was done by INMARSAT satellites in conjunction with Local user terminals... if a stationary crashed aircraft position can be located than why not a slow flying one?
Until a few years ago, 121.5/243.0 MHz ELT signals were located using doppler from the COSPAS/SARSAT satellites. On one pass, the doppler (generated from the satellite's motion) would yield two areas (one on each side of the satellite track). A second pass would determine which of the areas was the actual one in which the beacon should be found.
Doppler Processing
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: NJ
Age: 43
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding expectations and comments about searching the captain's simulator and laptop and finding something incriminating, no one has mentioned this aspect (so i will try):
IF hiding a plane on the way to demise (for insurance reasons or to create a mystery or both) is the objective of some skilled misguided but capable individual, they are surely able to use established erase and cleanse protocols to purge such evidence as could be found by investigators. And would have?
I also wish to say that while I also don't like the idea of a fellow pilot being the main suspect, I find it irresponsible to harp on electro-mechanical failures as explanatory, when this FACT has been both reported and presented here several times:
The left turn was pre-programmed into the FMC and noted on an ACARS event log before ACARS stopped (for whatever reason).
If you wish to blame electro-mechanical causes (such as coffee spills) please address this FACT (rather than ignore it) in your post. TY.
IF hiding a plane on the way to demise (for insurance reasons or to create a mystery or both) is the objective of some skilled misguided but capable individual, they are surely able to use established erase and cleanse protocols to purge such evidence as could be found by investigators. And would have?
I also wish to say that while I also don't like the idea of a fellow pilot being the main suspect, I find it irresponsible to harp on electro-mechanical failures as explanatory, when this FACT has been both reported and presented here several times:
The left turn was pre-programmed into the FMC and noted on an ACARS event log before ACARS stopped (for whatever reason).
If you wish to blame electro-mechanical causes (such as coffee spills) please address this FACT (rather than ignore it) in your post. TY.
Last edited by rigbyrigz; 16th Mar 2014 at 20:13.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: US
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rate the ATC authorities...
Perhaps those who fly in the area regularly (I do not) could 'rate' the quality of the ATC authorities in the area?
Which are more likely to not notice a primary target entering their airspace?
Which are more likely to not notice a primary target entering their airspace?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rubbish
Originally Posted by sellbydate
The Chinese deny it entered their airspace, but you would if you were hiding the aircraft at a Chinese airbase, having arrived at night, for whatever reason.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Ventura Ca U.S.A.
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Thunder Ball"
Heard some of the Chinese pax were high profile Businessmen of some major companys & their worths in the 100s of millions.
One was also at odds with the U.S, Governmen in the past.
Would a Government go to such means to pay back someone?
Yea, I'm full of it.
Heard some of the Chinese pax were high profile Businessmen of some major companys & their worths in the 100s of millions.
One was also at odds with the U.S, Governmen in the past.
Would a Government go to such means to pay back someone?
Yea, I'm full of it.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Canberra
Age: 66
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder why earlier pings don't deserve much attention. They could at least tell us whether it is the northern arc or the southern one which should be taken into consideration.
All that does if give you another set of arcs with a slightly different radius.
The key point is that the arcs we see from the last ping position go right over the last radar position, which means that the airliner very likely took a course roughly corresponding to one of those arcs.
Earlier signals could indicate whether the plane might have "cut the corner", which would be reasonable to assume if it flew a straight course.
All we can now from the arcs is that the plane is now on the surface of the planet up to a half hour's flying distance from the arcs.
That's a huge area, the size of a large country.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I find it hard to believe that military radar does not operate 24/7 -airborne threats only show up during business hours?