PPRuNe Forums

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Closed Thread
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 15th Mar 2014, 11:53   #3841 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Perth
Age: 55
Posts: 65
Thanks jimjim1

The corridors should be along a large circle of radius 4840 km (as measured on the Earth's surface) centred on a point on the equator at 64 degrees east.

This is the point below the INMARSAT IOR which has been doing the receiving of pings.

I have not been able to draw postable diagrams yet these are close to yours.

The explanation for this is spread over several pages of previous posts by myself and several others especially including a photo of a map from the SAR authorities.
ana1936 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 11:53   #3842 (permalink)
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 31
Radio contact with MH88

(Sorry if this has been posted before)

In the New Straits Times, an anonymous 777 pilot was quoted saying he had radio contact with MH730 on 121.5 MHz at 01:30LT (17:30Z), 8 mins after loss of radar contact. The NST report says that the pilot was over Vietnam, 30 mins ahead of MH730 with destination Narita, Japan. Data from Flightradar24 suggests that this flight in contact with MH730 may have been MH88.

MH88 on Flightradar24

The MH88 pilot said to NST that he was sure he was talking to the co-pilot of MH370.
Aireps is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 11:54   #3843 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Australia
Age: 57
Posts: 1
Do I rightly recall that a friend of the Captain met him through 'political activism?'

If so, what exactly was meant by that? Does it mean that the guy handed out leaflets at his local supermarket against cutting down trees? Or was he a fully fledged campaigner for any one of a number of contraversial/extremist organisations whose names hardly need to be spelt out?

In the light of current developments, I can't believe this isn't a focus by someone, somewhere; it seems to have never been more relevant. Or - given the speculation by some about planesnatching, installing 'dirty bombs' and the like, is the extent of his extracurricular actvities too alarming for us to know the details?

Conversely if his activities were only small fry, I'd expect his family to want to see this cleared up.
Serendipity88 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 11:58   #3844 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Perth
Age: 55
Posts: 65
Sheep Guts

The south china sea is on the 40 degree (satellite altitude) line as you say.

However, it is not included in the final 8:11am locations (marked in red on the Malaysian photo) because that area is also covered by another INMARSAT doing ACARS coms (called POR which is over the Pacific).

If the plane had ended up there then the pings would also have been picked up by POR. Obviously they were not hence the corridors start West of south-east asia.

You can see a map of INMARSAT coverage back a few pages or just search on google.
ana1936 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 11:59   #3845 (permalink)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Where it is comfortable...
Age: 53
Posts: 564
As the current thinking is moving away from an accident to a willful act, all the possible scenarios have one thing in common: they require a good deal of planning and preparation with nothing left to chance, and the kind of impeccable timing that one can see in a Mission: Impossible movie. Such preparation needs both time and money, and likely involved a number of people. It is very clear that any such planning must have involved this particular flight, as a number of key parameters (eg. takeoff time, initial flight path, fuel endurance, etc.) are unique to this flight only. I think it is also no coincidence that a moonless sky was chosen.

The key emerging question is why this particular flight would have been chosen as the target of such a massive investment and effort. I can think of several countries in the region where security procedures are much more lax (speaking of experience, will say no more), I can think of several airports on the border of oceanic zones where it is much easier to slip away from primary radar, etc.

Clearly understanding the motives is the key to the puzzle, as it is drifting away from being a purely aviation matter to something of much broader implications.
andrasz is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:06   #3846 (permalink)
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: LAX
Posts: 68
Although it often looks like it, this is NOT the Daily Mail discussion forum, but a PROFESSIONAL FLIGHT CREW forum.

Please refrain from commenting if not flightcrew or other aviation professional.
With all respect, I beg to differ. I've been following this thread since its inception and some of the more insightful and helpful posts have come from people who are not in the aviation industry. This is such an unusual event that the normal rules don't really apply. If someone with knowledge of satellite telecommunications wants to chime in with their particular expertise, I welcome their opinions. We've had a detective comment on investigative issues that have been helpful. I've even seen a few posts from admitted SLF (a/k/a the people who pay the bills) that were thoughtful and constructive to the discussion.

This incident is highly unusual and I welcome posts from anyone who can help shed some light on the situation whether they're in the industry or not.
mseyfang is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:07   #3847 (permalink)
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 1

Correct me if wrong, but could the plane have landed or crash landed with some systems still active along that 40 degrees relative angle extrapolated through Inmarsat/plane TX-RX range-calc and continued to ping the satellite while on the ground?
How often does the pinging occurs?
Since it seems possible to judge movement with a single radio reference only by measuring changes in distance from the satellite thus impossible if flying along an equidistant path (40 degrees in this case), could it be the plane wasn't even moving at all? Is the Inmarsat ACARS system on the 777 active while on battery power or does it needs engines or APU to be powered?
pat_karl is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:08   #3848 (permalink)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 16
Loose lips

Given recent developments, I am now of the opinion that some ideas and theories should be referred to relevant authorities rather than disseminated via this site. I'm sure that the relevant people are quietly going about their business and that they know more than they're letting on. It seems prudent to now assist them by hesitating before communicating.
hogey74 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:10   #3849 (permalink)
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 49
Simple crewing question...that I think hasn't been discussed here yet.
Since when were both pilots rostered on MH370 flight? Was it long term planning random assignation, specific request of one or both pilot or was it a last minute crew assignation decided by Crew planning?
In case of fool play, which is highly suspected, we can guess that whatever happened to MH370, it has required serious planning and preparation.
This could at least give an indication if pilots could be involved or not.
Celestar is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:13   #3850 (permalink)
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 6,012
I do not think a wilful act other than a head case individual or even crew member stacks up!
Any organised terrorist group would have claimed their prize by now as not to do so would be unproductive in their misplaced eyes to their cause.

More likely this was a case of massive depressurisation. Note the private jet accident which flew for miles with all the crew and PAX inert in their seats.
a massive decompression would have accounted for the lack of radio communications, attempt to change course, deviation off track and eventual crash in the Sea.

Seems to fit the events more than some high tech terrorist attack
Pace is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:14   #3851 (permalink)
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In front of a computer
Posts: 1,637
Just been running the FR24 playback of the relevant time.

Three flights along the route which are possible to tag along with given the timing.

THY67, EK349 and SQ68.

The 45,000ft report is from RMAF mil radar and I'm given to understand these are not pinpoint readings thus 40,000 would be more sensible and achievable..
ETOPS is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:16   #3852 (permalink)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: troposphere
Posts: 603
Inmarsat 40 degree line

Those concentric circles with degrees on them on the map denote 'angle of elevation' for a ground observer at sea level to assist with positioning a flat antenna on some terminals.As you get closer to the satellite the angle increases.The zero circle denotes the point at which the satellite will be on,or very slightly under the horizon.Given that the satellites are in geostationary orbit ( approx 36,000 kms above the equator) the difference in the elevation angle at 35,000 feet instead of sea level will be negligble.

Which means that you could probably use a hand held satphone out of a western facing window on the aircraft.


Last edited by TWT; 15th Mar 2014 at 12:33.
TWT is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:16   #3853 (permalink)
Props are for boats!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: An Asian Hub
Age: 49
Posts: 989
Ok thanks for the info Stormy and Ana. Will bet back to be books. What's missing is the range rings for the other pings in between they haven't given us. Surely that would give a better picture. It is not plausible it flew to Kazakstan. Pakistan and Indian radars would have seen them for sure.
Sheep Guts is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:17   #3854 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London
Age: 37
Posts: 35
So the options with the current information (which will undoubtedly change again) would be a hijacking, particularly one where the hijackers demanded a reroute - which would mean the plane could be parked at an airbase somewhere in central Asia, or a situation like Ethiopian Airlines 961 but with an even worse outcome.

If the pilot took it upon himself to change course, what could his motivation be? If he was suicidal, surely he'd have nosedived it somewhere along the planned route or into a prominent building/city? Not flown thousands of miles out into the Indian Ocean.

If he was attempting to land somewhere else, why? to sell the plane? I can't imagine the market for stolen intercontinental jets is huge, and most of the components could be tracked if it was broken up.

I can't imagine a Malaysian pilot wanting to claim asylum anywhere either.
mommus is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:18   #3855 (permalink)
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 90
A 772 Driver has confirmed that it would not be physically possible to get up to FL450 with a full load and 7 hours fuel minimum on board. In fact, I would be very surprised if it could even get to 400? 772 Drivers please advise.

It's not clear where those altitude data came from, especially now we know that the Satellite was NOT receiving such data?
The altitude excursion data was attributed to leaked Malaysian PSR returns on the unidentified target (presumed MH370) at IGARI sometime shortly after transponder switched off.
CogSim is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:19   #3856 (permalink)
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by Sheep Guts View Post
What I am saying Stormy is that final ping to the Satellite at 8:11 am came from the wreckage in the South China off Veitnam. Which is on the 40 degree line. It doesn't show up on your picture because it's faded. But I saw it when Jim Clancy showed his picture in front cameras this afternoon after the news conference.
What would be good is if we had the intermediate ping details & times....

Using the 40 degree arc, it does put it a long way away, especially if India did not see it.
StormyKnight is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:19   #3857 (permalink)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 9
Relatively untraceable communications with ground-based collaborators

If there is a conspiracy involving collaborators on the ground, it has already been pointed out that satellite phone contact would probably work from inside the plane, especially near a window. A small hand-held VHF set would be problematic and give very restricted reliable range of miles or tens of miles unless you were lucky.

Whilst the use of a satellite phone would leave you open to eventually being tracked / triangulated that would almost certainly take days to occur as the satellite operators would have no particular reason to suspect that any given call was even remotely related to the missing aircraft.

From the flight deck, as may well be the case, HF radio would probably be your best bet. Picking a suitable channel, you are highly unlikely to be overheard and HF is notoriously hard to triangulate unless significant assets are coordinated and expecting your transmissions. This would give a potential reliable range of one or two thousand miles, coupled maybe with a switch to VHF when in closer range. It's easy to overestimate the SIGINT resources that are out there and kid yourself that 'everything is monitored' but it's vastly more likely that that is simply not true. And even if it were true, your goals have probably been accomplished long, long before anyone realises that a couple of random / unexpected transmissions were you and joins up the dots.

Simple portable HF stations are ridiculously easy to set up as anyone with a comms background (as I have myself) will know, ditto VHF. It can all be operated from the back of a truck and put together for a few hundred dollars.
MikeBanahan is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:22   #3858 (permalink)
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Airborne
Posts: 118
Pace ...More likely this was a case of massive depressurisation.

I heard on the news conference that systems were switched off / deactivated at different times, pointing to the fact they were deliberately turned off.

That would be 2 radios transmitting data, transponder, CPDLC, SAT, ADS etc..
James7 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:27   #3859 (permalink)
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 946
If the aircraft was deviated from its route intentionally, and then as suggested flown in close proximity to another aircraft to avoid detection the satellite pings that have been recorded could be traced to other transponding aircraft on the same route, military primary radar traces could then be observed for a target break away and a possible new route calculated.

Last edited by Above The Clouds; 15th Mar 2014 at 12:53.
Above The Clouds is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:30   #3860 (permalink)
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 123
North & South Arc

Why have they not filled in the arc between the north & south arc. Would this not also be a possible location for the final 8:11am ping?
StormyKnight is offline  
Closed Thread

acars, crash, elt, hf links, malaysian, mh370, missing, pingers, plane, vhf

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:34.

1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1