Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
jcleant
we don't have a crash yet
and France always launches a criminal
we don't have a crash yet
and France always launches a criminal
In Malaysia, itīs a police investigation as well. Quoting Reutersī article from today, mentionig the police may search the pilotīs home:
MH 370 Investigators Focus On Foul Play - Reports
Malaysian Transport Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said he could not confirm the last heading of the plane or if investigators were focusing on sabotage.
"A normal investigation becomes narrower with time... as new information focuses the search, but this is not a normal investigation," he told a news conference. "In this case, the information has forced us to look further and further afield."
Investigators were still looking at "four or five" possibilities, including a diversion that was intentional or under duress, or an explosion, he said. Police would search the pilot's home if necessary and were still investigating all 239 passengers and crew on the plane, he added.
"A normal investigation becomes narrower with time... as new information focuses the search, but this is not a normal investigation," he told a news conference. "In this case, the information has forced us to look further and further afield."
Investigators were still looking at "four or five" possibilities, including a diversion that was intentional or under duress, or an explosion, he said. Police would search the pilot's home if necessary and were still investigating all 239 passengers and crew on the plane, he added.
Hmmm.....
1. Really, this should have been a closed forum thread from the outset. Pprune may wish to review this. There are a heap of press and idiots on here now that have only joined since this incident. Most (Obviously not all.) of these have zero to contribute. Too much clutter. It's agonising wading through the verbiage. 
2. What's now most telling, is not what we know, but what we do NOT.
3. There are also unknown 'knowns' to paraphrase a certain well-known US politician.... Much of the stupid speculation could be damped down if we were told a) If there was anything especially valuable in the hold, and b) What the ACTUAL fuel upload was. I don't see that the authorities have anything to lose by releasing that, - certainly the latter.
2. What's now most telling, is not what we know, but what we do NOT.
3. There are also unknown 'knowns' to paraphrase a certain well-known US politician.... Much of the stupid speculation could be damped down if we were told a) If there was anything especially valuable in the hold, and b) What the ACTUAL fuel upload was. I don't see that the authorities have anything to lose by releasing that, - certainly the latter.
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The cost, complexity of coordinated SAR and unnecessary trauma to waiting families can only make a stronger business case for the implementation of triggered transmission of flight data as envisioned in the BEA report on AF447.
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Character assassinations
I don't think there is anyone carrying out a character assassination of the Captain. The investigation must be stringent and the investigators must think the unthinkable - there is nobody so important that they are above investigation.
As for press releases/conferences, circumspection is needed. I know the 777 MEC and ELMS well and I think that (for whatever reason) the authorities aren't revealing everything they know but that is not unusual in the 21st century with a hysterical 24/7 media on their case. And I'm not about to start directing those who might want to bring down another 777 where to look - although plenty of others have.
There may well be an ongoing hostage negotiation for all we know. If the press suddenly find the location of that, I think we can all guess the likely outcome.
As for press releases/conferences, circumspection is needed. I know the 777 MEC and ELMS well and I think that (for whatever reason) the authorities aren't revealing everything they know but that is not unusual in the 21st century with a hysterical 24/7 media on their case. And I'm not about to start directing those who might want to bring down another 777 where to look - although plenty of others have.
There may well be an ongoing hostage negotiation for all we know. If the press suddenly find the location of that, I think we can all guess the likely outcome.
Originally Posted by x_navman
I've used Inmarsat in the marine environment.
The antenna needs to be kept "pointing" at the satellite during use.
to do this, the Inmarsat antenna contains a GPS receiver/antenna - if it knows where it is, and it knows where the satellite is, it can keep the antenna pointed at the satellite.
On a boat, the antenna is also stabilized, to account for the roll and yaw of the boat, but maybe this isn't needed on an aircraft.
The antenna needs to be kept "pointing" at the satellite during use.
to do this, the Inmarsat antenna contains a GPS receiver/antenna - if it knows where it is, and it knows where the satellite is, it can keep the antenna pointed at the satellite.
On a boat, the antenna is also stabilized, to account for the roll and yaw of the boat, but maybe this isn't needed on an aircraft.
Even 15 years ago it was possible to buy car-top antennas that did not need any pointing, worked as long as satellite was in line of sight anywhere above 15 degrees of the horizon. I'm sure modern Inmarsat antennas can connect without the need for satellite tracking.
The cost, complexity of coordinated SAR and unnecessary trauma to waiting families can only make a stronger business case for the implementation of triggered transmission of flight data as envisioned in the BEA report on AF447.
Would we see/hear the same?
Or would the freighters be "exempted"????
(we have families too.....)
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You are correct that for a stationary use, Inmarsat antennas can be manually pointed. On a moving Vehicle, it is usually necessary to have an antenna that can track the satellite to maintain an Inmarsat connection.
Are you sure that the car antenna you mentioned was not for an Iridium? Irdium phones, even when used for data, do not need to be pointed.
My bet is that the Inmarsat antenna on this plane has its own GPS, and that GPS is the source of the locations in the "pings".
Are you sure that the car antenna you mentioned was not for an Iridium? Irdium phones, even when used for data, do not need to be pointed.
My bet is that the Inmarsat antenna on this plane has its own GPS, and that GPS is the source of the locations in the "pings".
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The Inmarsat claim of receiving "pings" is shrouded in privacy and is contradicted by all the evidence.
Dam near all aviation experts say the search is not in the right area.
The Evidence is:
1. The transponder went off because it was either out of range or disintegrated. At the same time, tracking went off. That again is a sign of disintegration.
2. The only reliable witness Michael McKay of NZ observation from an oil rig, is he saw it explode, gave the bearing 270 except he got the distance wrong, it was much further away than he guessed. At 36,000 ft, that explosion was visible for hundreds of miles and HE was the only one report it, to Vietnam who did search where he said he saw it but it was NOT there, it was the same bearing but a greater distance.
3. Vietnam flights spotted what looked like debris at that point near the Flight Plan Track.
4. Chinese satelite spotted what looked like wreckage where the debris would have drifted to.
5. The "Imarsat" report conflicts with all the above evidence and does not add up. Imarsat for Privacy reasons are
refusing to provide more information. Malaysian airlines are refusing to give information which again, does not help the search.
The search should be along the flight plan track exactly where the transponder went off to the Vietnam coast, centered on the last observation by Michael McKay.
It's that SOLE One and Only observation that anyone can rely on. It's corroborated by multiple sources.
How can the world be so dumb and stupid to go off on wild theories that it went to the Indian Ocean, landed on an island , and now, it went to the middle east, it went to Europe..
There are very serious problems with the "primary radar" interpretation. The world there is full of aircraft and it's predictable that one operator may not know of all the flights that took place or if flights were not notified to other countries. That happens.
The fact is, secondary radar went off from Malaysia and did not come on in Vietnam. That corroborates the
flight tracking information of stopping in the sky on track, between Malaysia and Vietnam.
The Chinese appear to have other resources to confirm the impact.
An underwater search needs to start at that estimated observation, on track, at the bearing observed by
Michael McKay as there is NO other reliable and credible evidence
except for the position where the Transponder stopped which is a pretty good starting point.
I'm amazed at how the worlds press fail to look at the facts.
What is even more amazing is the apparent incompetence to date.
Now, wait for it, the US Navy is sending expensive resources into the Indian Ocean "looking for the 777".
It begs the question, exactly "where" do they intend to look in the Indian Ocean when all the
evidence says the 777 lies on the direct Flight Plan Track after it's transponder "stopped"
to the location observed by Kiwi Oil Rig "worker", Michael J. Mckay.
Dam near all aviation experts say the search is not in the right area.
The Evidence is:
1. The transponder went off because it was either out of range or disintegrated. At the same time, tracking went off. That again is a sign of disintegration.
2. The only reliable witness Michael McKay of NZ observation from an oil rig, is he saw it explode, gave the bearing 270 except he got the distance wrong, it was much further away than he guessed. At 36,000 ft, that explosion was visible for hundreds of miles and HE was the only one report it, to Vietnam who did search where he said he saw it but it was NOT there, it was the same bearing but a greater distance.
3. Vietnam flights spotted what looked like debris at that point near the Flight Plan Track.
4. Chinese satelite spotted what looked like wreckage where the debris would have drifted to.
5. The "Imarsat" report conflicts with all the above evidence and does not add up. Imarsat for Privacy reasons are
refusing to provide more information. Malaysian airlines are refusing to give information which again, does not help the search.
The search should be along the flight plan track exactly where the transponder went off to the Vietnam coast, centered on the last observation by Michael McKay.
It's that SOLE One and Only observation that anyone can rely on. It's corroborated by multiple sources.
How can the world be so dumb and stupid to go off on wild theories that it went to the Indian Ocean, landed on an island , and now, it went to the middle east, it went to Europe..
There are very serious problems with the "primary radar" interpretation. The world there is full of aircraft and it's predictable that one operator may not know of all the flights that took place or if flights were not notified to other countries. That happens.
The fact is, secondary radar went off from Malaysia and did not come on in Vietnam. That corroborates the
flight tracking information of stopping in the sky on track, between Malaysia and Vietnam.
The Chinese appear to have other resources to confirm the impact.
An underwater search needs to start at that estimated observation, on track, at the bearing observed by
Michael McKay as there is NO other reliable and credible evidence
except for the position where the Transponder stopped which is a pretty good starting point.
I'm amazed at how the worlds press fail to look at the facts.
What is even more amazing is the apparent incompetence to date.
Now, wait for it, the US Navy is sending expensive resources into the Indian Ocean "looking for the 777".
It begs the question, exactly "where" do they intend to look in the Indian Ocean when all the
evidence says the 777 lies on the direct Flight Plan Track after it's transponder "stopped"
to the location observed by Kiwi Oil Rig "worker", Michael J. Mckay.
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BTW...
I'm on the side of: sudden decompression > pilot incapacitation while implementing descent/turnback > airplane flies on a/p until fuel starvation (i.e. the Payne Stewart scenario).
But the longer we go without finding debris, the more alternatives have to be considered.
I also agree completely that the authorities would be better served by releasing more factual information like fuel on board at departure, whether ACARS messages were logged, etc. But believe Hanlon's Razor is most useful to explain why they haven't.
But the longer we go without finding debris, the more alternatives have to be considered.
I also agree completely that the authorities would be better served by releasing more factual information like fuel on board at departure, whether ACARS messages were logged, etc. But believe Hanlon's Razor is most useful to explain why they haven't.
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GPS
I know many companies who track their vehicle fleets and helicopter operations 24/7 on GPS programs. The flying public will start to demand this if 370 is not located. Hopefully they will demand this regardless. The airlines charge you premium dollars to fly but will not spend extra to track, we can now see where this thinking has left them. Totally clueless.
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inmarsat
Actually :
Isatphone Satellite Phone Coverage - Inmarsat World Wide Coverage Map at Globalcom
But all the inmarsat stuff is nothing but a rumor as long as there is nothing established about the equipment actually on board and the state is was in during the flight. For all we know some journalist can have read something like the above link and made up the rest.
The advanced spot-beam technology allows Inmarsat satellite phones to maintain a footprint stretching across most of the Earth. The built-in GPS in the Isatphone Pro is used in part to pass location information to the satellite so that the satellite can assign the proper spot bean to a, Isatphone Pro user. Notice that the spot beams overlap, providing near seamless coverage.
But all the inmarsat stuff is nothing but a rumor as long as there is nothing established about the equipment actually on board and the state is was in during the flight. For all we know some journalist can have read something like the above link and made up the rest.
ramjet
my gut feeling was the same - i was only discussing this this morning
start again at the last known position transponder and track along that and
see how it goes with the witness position and drop the sonar's
i concur
my gut feeling was the same - i was only discussing this this morning
start again at the last known position transponder and track along that and
see how it goes with the witness position and drop the sonar's
i concur
Last edited by rog747; 16th Mar 2014 at 06:26.
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Skynews reporting that sources at Inmarsat have confirmed that data packet audio pings were being received for 5 hours after aircraft radar contact lost.
Inmarsat statement on Malaysia Airlines flight MH370
14 March 2014: Inmarsat has issued the following statement regarding Malaysia Airlines flight MH370.
Routine, automated signals were registered on the Inmarsat network from Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 during its flight from Kuala Lumpur.
This information was provided to our partner SITA, which in turn has shared it with Malaysia Airlines.
For further information, please contact Malaysia Airlines.
14 March 2014: Inmarsat has issued the following statement regarding Malaysia Airlines flight MH370.
Routine, automated signals were registered on the Inmarsat network from Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 during its flight from Kuala Lumpur.
This information was provided to our partner SITA, which in turn has shared it with Malaysia Airlines.
For further information, please contact Malaysia Airlines.
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Ole.
that's for a handset - a phone - which has data capability, but at a very low bit rate.
the isatphone is a relatively new product - 5 years..?
Most other Inmarsat products have directional antennas
but even if they were using an Inmarsat product without a directional antenna, the antenna still probably had a GPS, and the location could be transmitted in the "ping", without any need to get the location from other instruments on the aircraft
that's for a handset - a phone - which has data capability, but at a very low bit rate.
the isatphone is a relatively new product - 5 years..?
Most other Inmarsat products have directional antennas
but even if they were using an Inmarsat product without a directional antenna, the antenna still probably had a GPS, and the location could be transmitted in the "ping", without any need to get the location from other instruments on the aircraft
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BBC summary, 14th March
This is a helpful summary and explanation with excellent computer graphics – 2 minutes 43 seconds.
BBC News - Missing airliner: How do transponders and radar work?
BBC News - Missing airliner: How do transponders and radar work?
Last edited by Lorimer; 14th Mar 2014 at 18:21. Reason: clarification
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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With over 200 people on board at least one would have left his mobile phone turned on in spite of the requirement to turn it off or to Flight. If that was the case is there a way to track the signal of that phone? The mobile companies in Malaysia should be able to highlight a phone travelling at 480 mph in the relevant direction of the flight, would it then be possible to track that signal by satellite?
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What about the fuel management system?
Now, as to the military not responding: I would gently mention that, in the height of the Cold War, some youngster flew his four-banger from the Baltic Sea all the way to Moscow and put it down smack in Red Square, and the vaunted USSR military did not react. Then we have the case of those four deserters from the Cuban Navy that stole a gunboat, sailed it right smack past the US Naval Station Key West (with the Cuban pennant flying), on to the dockside at the Hyatt, tied it up, and strolled ashore past the veranda breakfast crowd carrying their rifles, on into the streets of Key West to go find someone to surrender to. They tapped on the shoulder of a cop writing a parking ticket and asked nicely if they could surrender to him. All blithely right through all the advanced military hardware spying on and guarding from the pesky Cubans manned 24/7 for decades. And nobody reacted.
Don't expect too much from either the military or the spooks. Cell-phone calls in English from some lovestruck kid in Boise to his girlfriend are much more interesting to go eavesdrop on. And likely more salacious.
Then we have the case of those four deserters from the Cuban Navy that stole a gunboat, sailed it right smack past the US Naval Station Key West (with the Cuban pennant flying), on to the dockside at the Hyatt, tied it up, and strolled ashore past the veranda breakfast crowd carrying their rifles, on into the streets of Key West to go find someone to surrender to. They tapped on the shoulder of a cop writing a parking ticket and asked nicely if they could surrender to him. All blithely right through all the advanced military hardware spying on and guarding from the pesky Cubans manned 24/7 for decades. And nobody reacted.Don't expect too much from either the military or the spooks. Cell-phone calls in English from some lovestruck kid in Boise to his girlfriend are much more interesting to go eavesdrop on. And likely more salacious.
Last edited by OldDutchGuy; 14th Mar 2014 at 20:33. Reason: First paragraph got lost in the ether; had to re-splice.