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Old 14th Mar 2014, 03:46   #3041 (permalink)
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REALLY, how is making a comment on dropping a sonobuoy from a P8 to listen for pingers worthy of being dropped from this thread?

P8 can drop sonor buoys or hydrophones and one is being sent to look/listen in the indian ocean?

comment pasted above from an earlier thread.
well to be honest they may be doing just that as well as the use of dumking sonar.

Only time will tell just what the pros are up to out there, but rest assured they will not have left any stones unturned or procedure possible untried.

Its all to easy for us to sit back and say they should have done this or done that or go here go there.

As for the passing of info to the media.
Lets just take a short breath here.
What if this situation was the result of a security lapse or its tied to an act of terror then of course the powers that be would not want to pass on all the info that they may have to hand as it may have an effect on possible actions they have or are planning. Untill the dust settles we wont know all the facts we can only continue to speculate.
However from where I am sat nice and cozy in China reading the threads and watching BBC and CNN, I can see vast sums of money and effort being expended by not only Malay but from some governments close by and all in an effort to assist close this out. So hats off to them guys.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 03:46   #3042 (permalink)
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"There is probably a significant likelihood" that Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 is on the bottom of the Indian Ocean, a senior U.S. official told CNN's Barbara Starr Thursday, citing information Malaysia has shared with the United States."
And I submit that there is a significant likelihood that US subs or subhunters have picked up the underwater ping from the emergency locator transmitter.

If so, expect a breakthrough in the next 12-24 hours.
Unlikely. The ocean is very large, and submarines are very few. If the plane is in the Indian ocean, the pingers are likely too deep to be heard by a sub or sonobuoys unless nearly overhead. See: Pinger Range, much of which could apply to this situation.

Edit: I should have mentioned, that reliable reception of these pingers, if they are deep, requires a deep (towed) receiver. That is why the US Navy has deep-towed pinger locators, which were used (unsuccessfully) to search for AF447.

Last edited by auv-ee; 14th Mar 2014 at 03:56. Reason: Additional comment
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 03:49   #3043 (permalink)
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Anyone can turn off the transponder but nobody can turn off the telemetry. That's all you need to know about what went down
Easy access within the cabin via E11 to the SATCOM, would disable all telemetry.

But I'm still interested whether this 777 is equipped with Satphones... unlikely I guess seeing it would completely redefine the scenario.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 03:50   #3044 (permalink)
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^^^ But the mode control is rotary and two clicks from 'normal' to get to STBY
That picture is from FCOM1.

The normal position for the switch is TA/RA.
It NEVER leaves that position except when called for by the Checklist (normally following an engine failure. Then it goes from TA/RA to TA ONLY).
It is completely inconceivable to me that any 777 pilot can accidentally select standby on this type of XPDR.

Switching it to STBY will also create an TCAS advisory message on EICAS.


WRT Emer Descent and the XPDR:

There is no changing of the XPDR mode in ANY checklist associated with Emer Descent.
The Emer Descent checklist only calls for 7700 set.
This is normally accomplished by the PM (we are trained to do it at the same time as we transmit a MAYDAY message).
The PF will be getting the aircraft in a descent and will not touch the XPDR as he's too busy with flying.


Disclaimer: I do not fly 777s for MAS
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 03:54   #3045 (permalink)
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All Thai airports are Military Air Force bases and hence the statement that they do not have them on the peninsular is not correct.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 03:58   #3046 (permalink)
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Fire in the Main Equipment Center (MEC)?

Given the sparse but interesting data of pings of the ACARS system but no data, - a hypothesis to explore is: could this be this is another SwissAir Flight 11 – a fire in the Main Equipment Center (MEC) underneath the cockpit? If there’s a fire a smoke detector illuminates the ‘EQUIP COOLING OVRD’ message on the cockpit EICAS.

see diagram here: http://www.skybrary.aero/images/B772_MEC_FIRE.jpg

It’s possible after seeing a message the crew began a turnback to Malaysia. But if the fire continued it could knock out communications equipment, which would explain the loss of comms, and blow out the crew oxygen bottle which could cause rapid decompression and crew hypoxia if it went off through the fuselage and/or the fire could have damaged the fly-by-wire flight controls which could explain the continued flight.

While just a hypothesis, unfortunately a 777 had a fire in this exact location – luckily for them on the ground in London Heathrow in Feb 2007. See the UK AAIB report:

The report said, “…Prior to this accident the aircraft manufacturer was involved in investigating 11 in-service reports of power panel overheat events, three of which involved major damage to the panels. The affected panels were the P200 and P300, and the affected contactors were the RBTB, Auxiliary Power Breaker (APB)and the Primary External Power Contactor (PEPC).

Now imagine if the fire occurred in the air at 35,000 feet.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:00   #3047 (permalink)

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I agree. As you must agree that sometimes a technical fault with a very low probability of happening happens, and since the probability for that issue to arise, crew wasn't ready and did not respond the way they should (I'm speaking theoretically, as I said, I won't speculate on what happened here), starting a chain reaction...

But remember also something : the Boeing 777 is an amazing aircraft, we all agree on that. But if you look at the numbers, statistically, a problem that has an extremely low probability of happening on the 777, the more aircraft fly, and the longer the model is in service, the higher the probability that same issue arises...
Technical faults do happen. The more times you fly, the more likely it is that something will eventually happen somewhere. I think you're alluding to a modified diluted version of the anthropic principle here - in that obviously something must have happened to the plane - in your view, possibly sequential multiple failures, hence the low likelihood is of less relevance. The trouble with this reasoning is that we don't actually know what happened to the aircraft. All we can say is that we have an a priori probability of various events occurring. When you stack unlikely events, the overall sequence becomes even more unlikely.

I agree to some extent with your chain reaction idea. In particular, if the plane is damaged and the environmental conditions change such that the crew are incapacitated then it significantly hampers their recovery efforts. However, largely these crew don't respond to crises in the same way than an unprepared individual might (i.e. not be ready etc.). A large part of their training incorporates being ready to fly broken planes insofar as I would actually say that these professional pilots are experts in flying broken planes more than unbroken ones. Obviously, the jet pilots out there can correct me on this point if I'm mistaken. But my impression is that it takes a whole lot more skill to fly a broken plane than a perfectly functioning one, and that's exactly why these experienced pro's are up in the sky not just anybody.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:09   #3048 (permalink)
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Whatever passport you used, the airline would still need to see a valid passport, either belonging to the final destination country or with a valid visa for said country.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:13   #3049 (permalink)
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But I'm still interested whether this 777 is equipped with Satphones...
The aircraft appears to have been fitted with an Inmarsat Aero L package which works through an omni-directional antenna in the global beams of the I-3 series of satellites.

Aero L is used for low speed (600 - 1200 bps) real-time, packet data comms used mainly for ATC (CPDLC) and ACARS services.

In short, no SatPhone services.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:25   #3050 (permalink)
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AFAIK: the only things I can think of witha push button type of mode select is the Collins PL4/21 with RTU's for tuning the radio or the Honeywell equivalent ( primus 800?) while quite nice in your King Air or Gulfstream, not quite the thing Boeing is in to.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:37   #3051 (permalink)
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Ok sorry I stand corrected. Didn't think anyone but the USN had them yet.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:37   #3052 (permalink)
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I have a question: Can a planeload of passengers be disabled by action from the cockpit? Meaning, if the a/c becomes depressurized, overhead functioning oxygen masks would automatically drop down. Could they be prevented from doing so; could the oxygen pressure be turned off from the cockpit? (Assuming some kind of mischief up ahead desiring the silencing of passengers and their cellphones.)
But the Pax will most likely run out of oxygen before the pilots do.

(I cannot give you exact numbers because of the following variables:
1. How many passengers are loaded on the aircraft and how many puts on and activates their masks.

2. Oxygen duration for the pilots is also dependant on the amount of crew (2/3/4) and the setting of their mask. 100% or not. EMER or not.)

Last edited by Pitot Probe; 14th Mar 2014 at 04:39. Reason: My spelling sucks!
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:38   #3053 (permalink)
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My background is healthcare with no knowledge of aviation except that it takes me to nice vacation locales.

While a shortage of O2 would be a critical event, might I also suggest an increase of CO2 as an equally important factor. Thank you.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:39   #3054 (permalink)
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Pretty interesting the US Navy is sending a P-8A Poseidon to the Indian Ocean. That plane is bristling with antennaes and advanced electronics for ELEINT and SIGINT and could be a vital tool in the search for electronic signatures. Clearly the search is now electronic, not visual....
Or acoustic. The P-8A can carry up to 121 sonobouys.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:40   #3055 (permalink)
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Pax oxygen can only be turned off on the 777 from the cockpit below 13500' cabin altitude.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:42   #3056 (permalink)
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WSJ now reporting that the pings included "location, speed, and altitude.
This seems very odd. First there were pings simply to get the satellites' attention; now it's claimed the pings were sending significant data. Why would the system be designed that way? Where would it be getting the data from? And why didn't anyone seem to know that this capability existed? Wouldn't it be more logical for that data to be sent with the ACARS information rather than in an "are you there?" ping?

Possibly this is a mis-reporting of a claim that location, speed and altitude could be derived from the pings by various analytical techniques.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:47   #3057 (permalink)
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Calling Malaysians "muppets" is ridiculous. Particularly when you have no knowledge at all of what comms gave taken place between them and the US, or any other country for that matter.

And, thus far, every leak from a so-called "reliable" source has turned out to be hogwash.

There would also be the matter of exactly when this US info, if it exists (which has still not been OFFICIALLY confirmed by the Malaysians or the US), was made available.

I simply don't buy into this theory that the Malaysians are a bunch of bumbling fools. My interactions with them, in 20+ years of living and working in SE Asia have not shown them to be bumbling fools.

If you simply don't have the right info you will not find the aircraft. It's really that simple, isn't it? They have no logical reason to prevaricate and will be painfully aware that their failure to find the aircraft is making them look bad. They'll want to find it as much as anybody else.

All the leaks from so-called "reliable" sources clearly do not help, and that's down to glory-seeking journalists who want to score the big story.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:54   #3058 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by nliving View Post
While a shortage of O2 would be a critical event, might I also suggest an increase of CO2 as an equally important factor. Thank you.
Not really. The lack of O2 happens due to the low atmospheric pressure after a depressurization, not due to passengers consuming all the oxygen. CO2 would take many hours to accumulate to dangerous levels, and since the plane is no longer airtight, it would be simply vented out.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:58   #3059 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bratschewurst View Post
This seems very odd. First there were pings simply to get the satellites' attention; now it's claimed the pings were sending significant data. Why would the system be designed that way?
To be honest, it could be a useful feature (e.g. the satellite could tell you were likely to leave coverage in an hour if you were near the edge of the beam and heading outward), but I also suspect it's a misunderstanding. Normally that kind of information would be sent in ADS messages over ACARS, and, if any were received, we'd have known where it went long ago.
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Old 14th Mar 2014, 04:59   #3060 (permalink)
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I guess they are serving random maps/images, mine are all in the range 46000 to 48000
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acars, crash, elt, hf links, malaysian, mh370, missing, pingers, plane, vhf

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