Russian B737 Crash at Kazan.
DOVE
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Yes! I apologize.
My word .. precision .. was an oxymoron. We all agree that it was enough to push toward the brown when all the ADI was blue, and vice versa pull towards the heavenly when everything was brown (as long as they had the strength and sufficient flight controls excursion). And I seem to remember that in some extreme attitudes, V bars are depicted to indicate the right direction to the horizon.
Thy were'nt performing a EO ILS manual, no A/T, no F/D, approach to the minima, but a wise and simple Go Around.
My word .. precision .. was an oxymoron. We all agree that it was enough to push toward the brown when all the ADI was blue, and vice versa pull towards the heavenly when everything was brown (as long as they had the strength and sufficient flight controls excursion). And I seem to remember that in some extreme attitudes, V bars are depicted to indicate the right direction to the horizon.
Thy were'nt performing a EO ILS manual, no A/T, no F/D, approach to the minima, but a wise and simple Go Around.
Last edited by DOVES; 4th Dec 2013 at 14:18.
Almost afraid to ask:
Why would a crew not have their belts on if in the terminal/approach/landing phase of a flight?
Why would a crew not have their belts on if in the terminal/approach/landing phase of a flight?
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RAT 5:
"I wonder if the final accident report will concentrate solely on the execution of the G/A, the subsequent mis-handling and the following on further mis-handling into the fatal dive."
Russian crash investigators are brutally thorough. I suggest you read one because its a real eye opener. Their criticism includes the regulatory and oversight infrastructure.
"I wonder if the final accident report will concentrate solely on the execution of the G/A, the subsequent mis-handling and the following on further mis-handling into the fatal dive."
Russian crash investigators are brutally thorough. I suggest you read one because its a real eye opener. Their criticism includes the regulatory and oversight infrastructure.
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The Russian CAA circulated a new directive which in addition to what has already been mentioned directs 737 operators to inspect the elevator power control unit for foreign objects and excessive dirt. Also to conduct a refresher for pilots on non-normal operation - jammed or restricted flight controls.
Sounds like hardware probs are not ruled out yet
Sounds like hardware probs are not ruled out yet
Charge of the tin foil hat brıgade
It's just usual post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy abundant around here. These recommendation have nothing to do with Tatarstan crash but rather with Norshuttle incident at Kittila, almost a year ago. FDR has pretty much ruled out the flight controls problems. Well, at least that's the official version, conspiracy theorists are free to offer their unbridled expertise on how the FDR sucks, investigation authorities are corrupt and it's normal that such things happen in unenlightened Russia.
Of course, TACANs on aircraft carriers do move and TACAN installation is much smaller than VOR/DME so it can be truck mounted but no intelligent air force uses frequencies that overlap with civilian NAVs - after all, their signal would suffer too.
It's fiction as long as someone doesn't claim it happened for real. Then it's bovine excrement.
You are. There was neither push to stop the nose rising while no one was in control until 25° up nor pull to get out of the dive afterwards.
Six days ago there were already recommendations out that concentrated on far more than solely GA. No need to wonder.
It were their actions on yoke that brought the nose over so speculation about their inability to reach controls is way off target.
Believe it or not, but not all DME xmitters are fixed.
Is this life imitating art, said art in turn imitating life? Ernie Gann's "Band Of Brothers" describes such a scene, and it in turn was inspired by a real 727 accident.
Or am I wrong?
I wonder if the final accident report will concentrate solely on the execution of the G/A, the subsequent mis-handling and the following on further mis-handling into the fatal dive.
It may be possible they were not strapped in and couldn't reach the controls after it went nose over
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Regarding the map shift issue, I once had a shift of approximately five miles after about as many hours airborne. Upon checking the FMC Nav pages, for whatever reason the FMC had gone into IRS Nav Only, ignoring external inputs. I have only seen this happen on that one occasion, and can't rule out the FO playing about with the FMC while I was in the loo, but it could have been a glitch of some sort; I've seen the FMC inexplicably throw its teddys out of the cot many times when it doesn't like a certain route or profile adjustment. That's why I don't allow the descent to be started without some appropriate raw data backing the FMC up, which doesn't seem to be taught - my current employer is the one operator I have flown for which does not require the SID or STAR to be backed up by raw data, and the cadets seem to do it more to humour me than than in an act of self preservation. If that sense of distrust of the automatics and FMC were more prevalent, then perhaps this crew would have started their approach in the right place. It still doesn't explain the loss of control in the GA, though.
DOVE
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@Aluminium shuffler
Wait!
Do You mean that during a final ILS approach PF does not have direct, combined indications of the LOC and GS (raw data)? But the usual magenta line (MAP)?
...my current employer is the one operator I have flown for which does not require the SID or STAR to be backed up by raw data,…
Do You mean that during a final ILS approach PF does not have direct, combined indications of the LOC and GS (raw data)? But the usual magenta line (MAP)?
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DOVES, an ILS is not a SID or a STAR.
I mentioned map shifts simply because I used to fly classics a few years ago, and none of them had GPS. Map shifts were fairly common in areas with few nav aids. A FMC update helped a bit, but did not cure the problem completely.
Don't know what equipment this 737 had.
I mentioned map shifts simply because I used to fly classics a few years ago, and none of them had GPS. Map shifts were fairly common in areas with few nav aids. A FMC update helped a bit, but did not cure the problem completely.
Don't know what equipment this 737 had.
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Doves, what I mean is that the VORs andADF are not used to monitor the SID or STAR. The ILS and LCTR are typically tuned before top of descent, so if the FMC screws up, there is no way to spot it. I prefer having VOR/ADF raw data on the map mode needles all the way to the ILS.
It's normal in most operators for both pilots to have the ND on map, not APP or VOR (as appropriate) for the approach, though we are allowed to have the PF use those raw modes for practice raw data flying as long as the PM has the map on. That's a pretty reasonable compromise, as the PFD has small scale duplicates of the ILS anyway, and the map had the VOR/ADF needles.
It's normal in most operators for both pilots to have the ND on map, not APP or VOR (as appropriate) for the approach, though we are allowed to have the PF use those raw modes for practice raw data flying as long as the PM has the map on. That's a pretty reasonable compromise, as the PFD has small scale duplicates of the ILS anyway, and the map had the VOR/ADF needles.
DOVE
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Thanks ManAdaSystem. That's very kind of you.
First time I had an astonishing meeting with map shift was during a Sim recurrent check on the 73, and if I remember right, it happened after an engine failure during cruise (thank God we had both Air conditioning operating).
And I recall too that during final on the MD11 PF had three “Approach” calls:
1) For the FGS to capture the LOC / GP
2) For the NAV display to show the raw data
3) For FMS to select the Approach data.
But the Russian B737 in Kazan was in final ILS APPROACH.
First time I had an astonishing meeting with map shift was during a Sim recurrent check on the 73, and if I remember right, it happened after an engine failure during cruise (thank God we had both Air conditioning operating).
And I recall too that during final on the MD11 PF had three “Approach” calls:
1) For the FGS to capture the LOC / GP
2) For the NAV display to show the raw data
3) For FMS to select the Approach data.
But the Russian B737 in Kazan was in final ILS APPROACH.
DOVE
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Aluminium
shuffler
Abhorrent and Ridiculous. If not because of x-check requirement.
Prudent and in my humble opinion the best configuration to conduct the final approach.
By the way how can we know if both pilots of B73 in Kazan were on MAP?
shuffler
...It's normal in most operators for both pilots to have the ND on map, not APP or VOR (as appropriate) for the approach,…
...though we are allowed to have the PF use those raw modes (for practice raw data flying) as long as the PM has the map on....
By the way how can we know if both pilots of B73 in Kazan were on MAP?
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the VORs andADF are not used to monitor the SID or STAR. The ILS and LCTR are typically tuned before top of descent, so if the FMC screws up, there is no way to spot it.
Remember that before TOD you are required to check your FMC position integrity before accepting blindly that you do not need to tune any aids and monitor the magenta line. So simplest solution to ensure nothing's drifted too far out of place: use POS on smallest scale of ND and you can SEE the GPS and FMC locations plotted against aircraft symbol, thus showing if any have a large discrepancy...
Personally, I leave the navigations aids for STAR tuned and updated throughout until we are taken off the STAR by ATC for vectors to an ILS, or if on a procedural approach, on an intercept track/course for intercepting localiser, split setup on naiads until established if needed (I can think of a number of routes in our network requiring this technique)
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Regarding the map shift issue, I once had a shift of approximately five miles after about as many hours airborne.
On non-GPS a/c B757 (similar system to a classic) I had 1.5nm map shift landing in Azores, and also into Cairo coming up from Mombasa. That was scary as it was a VOR approach on the easterly northern runway in a sand storm. The magenta line was line up on the southerly runway. When we flew through the m.g. in HDG SEL and VOR/LOC armed there was scrambling to check we had the correct frequency dialled in. We had, but it was a moment of ?????
I've found the common split of ND displays to be PM on raw data & PF on Map.
On non-GPS a/c B757 (similar system to a classic) I had 1.5nm map shift landing in Azores, and also into Cairo coming up from Mombasa. That was scary as it was a VOR approach on the easterly northern runway in a sand storm. The magenta line was line up on the southerly runway. When we flew through the m.g. in HDG SEL and VOR/LOC armed there was scrambling to check we had the correct frequency dialled in. We had, but it was a moment of ?????
I've found the common split of ND displays to be PM on raw data & PF on Map.
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There are many ways of doing this, but on the NG I just can't be bothered to tune my way down to touchdown.
The aircraft monitors position and will report deviations. GPS, IRS, DME/DME, etc, etc, and I have never had anything resembling map shift.
The displays are left on MAP, raw data ILS is available on the HSI. This gives excellent awareness of my position during the approach.
The Kazan guys were on the ILS , but seemed to have some problems getting there.
The aircraft monitors position and will report deviations. GPS, IRS, DME/DME, etc, etc, and I have never had anything resembling map shift.
The displays are left on MAP, raw data ILS is available on the HSI. This gives excellent awareness of my position during the approach.
The Kazan guys were on the ILS , but seemed to have some problems getting there.
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Flying over Kazahstan or Siberia without GPS you easy can get 5NM shift!
These guys tried to capture glideslope being left of centreline 4 km and above GS, finally they understood it is not possible and told "we will not land"...
Then made a go around with ending in crash...
These guys tried to capture glideslope being left of centreline 4 km and above GS, finally they understood it is not possible and told "we will not land"...
Then made a go around with ending in crash...