NTSB update on Asiana 214

[Desert185]

Conclusions?

Now there is talk about revisiting Age 65 after the age 63 United captain had a heart attack inflight.

Given the facts involved in Asiana, I guess we could conclude Asian males shouldn't be pilots, autothrottles cause landing accidents, women shouldn't drive fire trucks and all visual approaches should be made with an operating ILS. At least a flight plan was filed (one of the first things mentioned by the press in the US). Simple...and ridiculous.

Do we really need another mandated rule and procedure that would have contributed to the prevention of this tragedy? Lawyers need not respond.

[PA-28-180]

" Do we really need another mandated rule and procedure..."

Unfortunately, Desert185, this IS the usual guvmint response....have a problem....create ANOTHER government program, as in "I'm from the government. I'm here to help you"

[rottenray]

deSitter writes:
The rule in the US is - being in uniform more or less guarantees the miscreant a free pass for any level of incompetence.

I cannot even begin to describe how deeply offensive and incorrect this statement is.

We (in the US) have so many dedicated emergency personnel who have already proved this wrong by giving their lives trying to save others that I really shouldn't even have to reply to this.

But I will, and I am going to go against rules and "play the man" instead of "playing the ball."

I took the time to look through a lot of your posts in other topics.

Many statements you have made here and in other threads lead me to believe that you are here to derive pleasure from aggravating others, rather than contributing to a productive discussion.

If you'd like to call me out on this, be prepared for a lot of embarrassment. I have done my homework and can prove, beyond doubt, that you are what we call a "troll."

Your credibility on this site is at a solid zero. I don't know for sure if you participate in other aviation fora, but I think I recognize your trolling, antagonistic posting style in a few other places.

My advice, which you don't have to listen to, is to post less and read more - perhaps you'll eventually become nearly as wise as you think you are.


In less words - shut up and stop interfering with the intelligent discussion going on, you have nothing to say that any of us want to hear/read.

[Ranger One]

I was based out of… a small town in the north-east of the USA for many years.

For several of those years I was an active and well-trained member of an extremely professional combo (i.e. mostly volunteer with some paid guys too) fire department.

Reading the language some of my so-called fellow professionals are using towards fire and rescue personnel quite frankly makes me want to puke.

Do you think those men and women aren't every whit as professional as you are? Do you really feel it's your place to be Monday morning quarterbacking them? Especially when it's a profession you know bugger all about?

It's not even just one of you; there are several culprits. Some seem borderline obsessional about it.

You should be ashamed.

I'm surprised the moderators are letting this go on.

fuming.

[flarepilot]

ranger1

you have my respect and agreement.

[neila83]

I can see why some people are upset by the tone of some others about the fire crew, but there is a valid point here - and it should be properly investigated as a full third of the deaths in this accident are likely due to the fireservice response. So just brushing it aside as 'unfortunate' doesn't really wash. It is the fire service's job to save people, if someone died due to their actions, are they not as culpable as the air crew? The situation may be confusing, difficult, fast moving etc but is this not what they are trained for? Just like landing is what the air crew are trained for, and we keep hearing how an air crew that coudn't make the landing shouldn't be flying a plane - couldn't the same be said for a fire crew that can't do their job without killing someone?

Sadly there is a tendency for posters to form their opinion according to the nationality of those involved. My extremely strong suspicion is that if the nationalities were reversed and this had happened in the reciprocal country, it would be the fire service getting all the flak with demands for their heads, and excuses left right and centre for the flight crew.

For consideration, maybe ask yourself whether you are too quick to blame one group and defend another without rational basis?

[cwatters]

Rescue efforts and actions normally are covered in the final report. No reason to suspect they won't be this time?

[Ranger One]

neila83, I assure you the fire service will be debriefing and analyzing exactly as we would. And of course the whole thing will be part of the NTSB investigation. No-one is suggesting it should be brushed aside.

Unfortunately some people aren't interested in letting facts get in the way of a good rant; they already know exactly what happened, they don't need any damn investigation, facts or analysis, they just want to be abusive and offensive. Trolls, as someone else put it, quite rightly IMHO.

[DH_call]

@Ranger One

Thank you. Let's not forget that had those "professional" pilots not bungle a routine landing (allegedly), those rescue personnel would not have been there.

[Rick777]

Pilots commenting on the professionalism and procedures and techniques of firefighters makes about as much sense and firefighters commenting on pilots and how they do their job.

[stilton]

It's terribly tragic what happened to this passenger, but it was an accident. I think that even the possibility of this firefighter having to face charges for an accident while doing their utmost to save passengers lives was obscene.


There are only two people to blame in this accident and resulting deaths, they were in the left and right seats of that B777.

[Cows getting bigger]

Stepping back from the accountability argument, both occurrences need investigating. Pilots don't intentionally set out to crash aeroplanes, just as much as firefighters don't aim to kill the people they are meant to rescue.

If there have been failures (system, equipment or human), then once these have been identified they can be addressed such to minimise the risk to future passengers. Sure, if the final results of the investigation then hint at some form of negligence then let the lawyers have their moment.

Jumping on the 'hang em high' wagon isn't particularly helpful and does little to promote flight safety.

[suninmyeyes]

"But the plane’s pilots, as well as the airline, have raised the possibility that a key device that controls the Boeing 777’s speed may have malfunctioned."

I think Boeing would have been aware in the first week of the investigation if the autothrottle had malfunctioned, just as they were aware in the Turkish accident at Schipol. There has been no mention from Boeing of any autothrottle malfunction.

If the quote at the top is recent then it would imply that the pilots and the airline are still not aware of how the 777 autothrottle works. Although the autothrottle arm switches are engaged, and the autothrottle is engaged the autothrottle will not maintain the target speed in certain modes such as Flight Level Change if one flight director is off, the other is on and the autopilot is out and the flight director commands are not being followed. The warning is at the top left of the PFD where the thrust flight mode annunciation has gone to HOLD.

777 pilots (well most) have always been aware of how one can inadvertently get low and slow in this situation. The interesting thing will be if Boeing change the logic system of the autothrottle to make it easier for those who lack the basic skills. However by doing that they may be laying themselves open to the accusation that the system is not ideal and was contributory to the accident. The system does work well and if both flight directors had been off the autothrottle would have maintained the target speed and the accident would not have happened.

[vilas]

suninmyeyes
It is very similar to an Airbus fatal accident of Indian Airlines in the 90s. There also one FD was off and as a result the Auto Thrust did not change to speed mode. Pilots fail to realize what was happening and by the time they decided to go around the aircraft was too low and hit the ground killing everyone.

[olasek]

that the system is not ideal

Because there is no such thing as an ideal system.
These pilots weren't even facing a truly malfunctioning system and they still botched a landing in a 100% working aircraft. These pilots are supposed to be trained to handle landing with malfunctioning systems, malfunctioning throttle, engines out, degraded electrics/hydraulics, etc. This is what makes this crash so appalling and so rare.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Coupled to the fact that the 'handling pilot' under supervision was fresh off Airbus flying, and mightn't have been concerned that the throttles were stationary?

No excuse, in any aircraft, for not having hands on and if the speed is low overriding any auto system and giving it a handful of power and if the gadget fights you then turn the barsteward off ?

The 'supervising' pilot allegedly 'admits' seeing 3 red PAPI's at 500 ft. which isn't too serious, although somewhat lower than desired, at least one knows that one is still in 'the funnel', but to sit there and watch the 4th red light appear, at which time one loses all guidance as to how far outside the 'the funnel' one is, is well .............. ! But then we weren't there, so conjecture is useless.

An instructor once told me " when in doubt, lash out, everything forward for speed " and of course he was referring to power, pitch, mixture, carb.heat, flaps, cowl flaps etc. that we had to cope with, not just one lever !!

[barit1]

"...raised the possibility that a key device that controls the Boeing 777’s speed may have malfunctioned."

Excuse me, but -
"...raised the possibility that a key device that ASSISTS THE PILOT IN CONTROLLING the Boeing 777’s speed may have malfunctioned."

[skiingman]

Very bad, charges were merited. Let's hope the family take a mountain of cash from the city of SF. The rule in the US is - being in uniform more or less guarantees the miscreant a free pass for any level of incompetence.

I see you are taking a lot of heat for this factual statement.

You didn't say always, just more or less. In general people in uniforms are held to lower standards than people not in uniforms. Ask the 2012 Ohio Trooper of the Year. No way in hell had I done that I'd be walking around a free man.

[rottenray]

Reading the language some of my so-called fellow professionals are using towards fire and rescue personnel quite frankly makes me want to puke.

I've been feeling the same way, I thought it was because I had the fish...

[rottenray]

The interesting thing will be if Boeing change the logic system of the autothrottle to make it easier for those who lack the basic skills.

Wow.

Greyhound, here I come!