NTSB update on Asiana 214
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This 'culture' problem has been thrashedabout for years. If memory is correct did not Delta's training & safetydepartment go into Korean years ago to try and sort it out? I thought they hadsome modicum of success, at first.
In this case it appears to be a CRM and intrument scan problem.
The Delta audit was with Korean Air, not Asiana. Since then Korean Air has had a good safety record - kind of detracts from the theory that it is a culture problem. Culture may be a contributory factor, like the FLCH "issue", but not the cause. It can be corrected with good training.
Last edited by Cool Guys; 24th Apr 2014 at 02:57.
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Once something is totally digital eg. fly by wire, physics doesn't really hold anymore for the user where the computer is doing the work. Eg. the plane will go in any direction just by being pointed there.
And once you go off the edge of the world, the illusion collapses.
If you train people only inside the illusion, the first time they go off the edge into reality will quite possibly kill them - eg by a CFIT when the plane just doesn't have enough energy to clear an obstacle.
And once you go off the edge of the world, the illusion collapses.
If you train people only inside the illusion, the first time they go off the edge into reality will quite possibly kill them - eg by a CFIT when the plane just doesn't have enough energy to clear an obstacle.
Incidentally, the Pinnacle accident demonstrates that the problem is not unique to one nationality.
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SF fire chief backs down re: helmet cam reprimand:
Asiana crash: No reprimand for S.F. firefighter over filming - SFGate
Asiana crash: No reprimand for S.F. firefighter over filming - SFGate
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Why helmet cams?
I just cannot imaging the agony of knowing your family member survived only to be run over. So much tragedy in the whole event. And what was the point of the helmet cam? I tried to read the article but the writing just couldn't hold my attention. I can't tolerate reporting that doesn't answer how and the five Ws. And if the helmet cams are becoming common, how or why are those images released. Seems very wrong to me to release those sorts of images. Sorry if that is getting off topic.
Td Racer -
That's why the stall warning is a 'stick shaker', yoke forces go up, etc. An aural alert saying 'low airspeed' may not get through.
That's why the stall warning is a 'stick shaker', yoke forces go up, etc. An aural alert saying 'low airspeed' may not get through.
I strongly disagree. When the "Low airspeed" aural alert was added to the 737NG software, it then became the prompt to action the stall recovery maneuver. The pilots reaction is exactly as it would be at stick shaker.
If you say "low airspeed" into the ear of a sleeping NG pilot, he'll yell "set max thrust" and his right arm will move forward. Watch your head
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it then became the prompt to action the stall recovery maneuver.
We are not taking about what happens "most" of the time but when signals/alerts are missed, clearly there are numerous examples when aural signals were completely missed by the crew (either the signal was missed or lack of sound was missed too), in this particular case the crew "missed" (or deemed as normal) that they had to pull the yoke with 80- lbs of force. If they missed that makes you wonder about their state of mind and whether sound would do any good. Also, just from the human factor point of view it is bad design to make pilots rely too much on all kinds of warning "signals" - signals themselves may fail for independent reasons (like this buzzer in the Detroit crash) and pilot not hearing any sound may think everything is OK and dangerous complacency sets in.
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If you say "low airspeed" into the ear of a sleeping NG pilot, he'll yell "set max thrust"
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Quote:
If you say "low airspeed" into the ear of a sleeping NG pilot, he'll yell "set max thrust"
Which everybody who has ever read "stick and rudder" or any other book on flight mechanics knows will have two effects: on climb rate and on noise level. For more speed you have to give a nose down input on the elevator...
If you say "low airspeed" into the ear of a sleeping NG pilot, he'll yell "set max thrust"
Which everybody who has ever read "stick and rudder" or any other book on flight mechanics knows will have two effects: on climb rate and on noise level. For more speed you have to give a nose down input on the elevator...
(Haven't we done this before?)
Last edited by ImbracableCrunk; 28th Apr 2014 at 22:00. Reason: Spieling
.....bad design to make pilots rely too much on all kinds of warning "signals"
Quote ... and the little voice said in English, “Pull up, pull up!”. Well it was a warning system, right? The pilot, (and the flight recorder had this on it), inexplicably snapped back, “Shut up Gringo . . . !” and flipped off the warning voice . Minutes later the plane smashed into the mountain and everybody was dead.
I was once on a training flight where the instructor was constantly closing the throttles to set up an approach to a stall, for the various trainees who were on that detail, so of course the gear warning horn sounded and was instantly silenced by another crew member. On setting up the final landing, but before "gear down" had been called, the pilot again retarded the throttles to adjust his approach, and again the horn sounded and was again quickly cancelled ... I wondered what might have happened if that horn had, correctly, sounded in the landing flare !!
Just sayin', familiarity breeds contempt.
Originally Posted by The Crunk
The Asiana pilots should have pushed the nose forward! Why didn't we see that?
(Haven't we done this before?)
(Haven't we done this before?)
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/53661...st-pilots.html
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They should have known better, but I still feel very sorry for both of these pilots.
A couple of years of pilot training, a heap of sim and CRM courses are insufficient to counteract thousands of years of culture. Asiana Airlines management in the past has failed to initiate counter culture cockpit management, which makes it the problem.
There have been isolated outcomes where cultural considerations have been put aside. However there are many more cases where management has been spoon fed safety solutions and for no valid reason, failed to act.
Last I heard, a retired Japanese pilot was engaged to manage safety matters. That must have been a major call and I hope he succeeds.
A couple of years of pilot training, a heap of sim and CRM courses are insufficient to counteract thousands of years of culture. Asiana Airlines management in the past has failed to initiate counter culture cockpit management, which makes it the problem.
There have been isolated outcomes where cultural considerations have been put aside. However there are many more cases where management has been spoon fed safety solutions and for no valid reason, failed to act.
Last I heard, a retired Japanese pilot was engaged to manage safety matters. That must have been a major call and I hope he succeeds.
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Hi autoflight
This tells some more about the new safety Chief:
Asiana Airlines? new safety chief stresses preemptive action
The following article would seem to be a step in the right direction:
http://www.voanews.com/content/asian...g/1851905.html
However punishments based on a set formula laid down by an authority without finding the root cause, such as the following article is proposing, is unlikly to produce good long lasting improvements (in my opinion):
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20131126000884
This tells some more about the new safety Chief:
Asiana Airlines? new safety chief stresses preemptive action
The following article would seem to be a step in the right direction:
http://www.voanews.com/content/asian...g/1851905.html
However punishments based on a set formula laid down by an authority without finding the root cause, such as the following article is proposing, is unlikly to produce good long lasting improvements (in my opinion):
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20131126000884
Last edited by Cool Guys; 29th Apr 2014 at 05:18.
Volume - Which everybody who has ever read "stick and rudder" or any other book on flight mechanics knows will have two effects: on climb rate and on noise level. For more speed you have to give a nose down input on the elevator...
Olasek - Most of the time, by most pilot.
We are not taking about what happens "most" of the time but when signals/alerts are missed, clearly there are numerous examples when aural signals were completely missed by the crew (either the signal was missed or lack of sound was missed too), in this particular case the crew "missed" (or deemed as normal) that they had to pull the yoke with 80- lbs of force. If they missed that makes you wonder about their state of mind and whether sound would do any good. Also, just from the human factor point of view it is bad design to make pilots rely too much on all kinds of warning "signals" - signals themselves may fail for independent reasons (like this buzzer in the Detroit crash) and pilot not hearing any sound may think everything is OK and dangerous complacency sets in.
We are not taking about what happens "most" of the time but when signals/alerts are missed, clearly there are numerous examples when aural signals were completely missed by the crew (either the signal was missed or lack of sound was missed too), in this particular case the crew "missed" (or deemed as normal) that they had to pull the yoke with 80- lbs of force. If they missed that makes you wonder about their state of mind and whether sound would do any good. Also, just from the human factor point of view it is bad design to make pilots rely too much on all kinds of warning "signals" - signals themselves may fail for independent reasons (like this buzzer in the Detroit crash) and pilot not hearing any sound may think everything is OK and dangerous complacency sets in.
I prefer the "low airspeed" aural warning in addition to the stick shaker. As you intimated, this crew ignored many, many other cues. Who knows if another aural alert would have saved them from themselves.
Thread Starter
NTSB to meet to determine probable cause
NTSB Media Advisory May 8, 2014:
The National Transportation Safety Board will meet on Tuesday, June 24 at 9:30 a.m. (EDT) to determine the probable cause of the July 2013 crash of Asiana Airlines flight 214 in California.
The National Transportation Safety Board will meet on Tuesday, June 24 at 9:30 a.m. (EDT) to determine the probable cause of the July 2013 crash of Asiana Airlines flight 214 in California.
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After a spate of "pilot error" crashes, and the founding of SkyTeam, Delta has sent tens of employees/crew over to Korean Air and China Airlines to institute a CRM program in both airlines. It seems to have worked as neither has had major "pilot error" incident since its inception.
Asiana was seen as a private airline and not a flag carrier like KE. They didn't face the same pressures to hire out of the Air Force like Korean. Asiana could look to United or Lufthansa for guidance on proper CRM.
I find it interesting that the major Chinese airlines haven't had a hull loss since the merger of airlines into Air China, China Southern, and China Eastern.
Asiana was seen as a private airline and not a flag carrier like KE. They didn't face the same pressures to hire out of the Air Force like Korean. Asiana could look to United or Lufthansa for guidance on proper CRM.
I find it interesting that the major Chinese airlines haven't had a hull loss since the merger of airlines into Air China, China Southern, and China Eastern.
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I find it interesting that the major Chinese airlines haven't had a hull loss since the merger of airlines into Air China, China Southern, and China Eastern.
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NTSB to release AZ214 report tomorrow 24 June.
Asiana crash: Who's to blame? - CNN.com
If I may be so bold - Where is Asiana Flight Ops management in the link of events and evident misunderstandings leading up (down) to a 773 being so low and so slow?
Asiana crash: Who's to blame? - CNN.com
If I may be so bold - Where is Asiana Flight Ops management in the link of events and evident misunderstandings leading up (down) to a 773 being so low and so slow?