NTSB update on Asiana 214
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The OZ 214 NTSB hearing has been rescheduled for 8:30 am tomorrow, December 11, 2013 and will now be only one day lasting until 8 pm Washington time (UTC-5).
https://twitter.com/NTSB
Links to the video streams here:
Investigative Hearing: Crash of Asiana Flight 214, San Francisco, CA, 7/6/2013
NTSB @NTSB 1h
Asiana flight 214 investigative hearing rescheduled for Dec. 11 from 8:30am-8:00pm.
Asiana flight 214 investigative hearing rescheduled for Dec. 11 from 8:30am-8:00pm.
Links to the video streams here:
Investigative Hearing: Crash of Asiana Flight 214, San Francisco, CA, 7/6/2013
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bamboo30 is correct. The only failure was between the trainee captain's ears.
One has to wonder, in fact, why he chose to use a/t while flying a manual approach.
One has to wonder, in fact, why he chose to use a/t while flying a manual approach.
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bamboo
if the pilot allowed the copilot to fly plane too slowly for safety, is it the copilot's fault?
or is it the captain's fault?
so too with any aircraft system...if the pilot allows the autothrottles to maintain speed, but the authothrottles do not maintain speed, who is at fault?
and if the pilot has asked the autothrottles to maintain speed incorrectly, who is at fault?
if the pilot allowed the copilot to fly plane too slowly for safety, is it the copilot's fault?
or is it the captain's fault?
so too with any aircraft system...if the pilot allows the autothrottles to maintain speed, but the authothrottles do not maintain speed, who is at fault?
and if the pilot has asked the autothrottles to maintain speed incorrectly, who is at fault?
Last edited by flarepilot; 11th Dec 2013 at 09:37.
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Bamboo said if you hit FL change and the plane crashes it is because he hit the wrong button. No one is required to look out the window and manually adjust the throttles.
Something has to be done now to change this mentality. Not two years from now.
Something has to be done now to change this mentality. Not two years from now.
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Farepilot and others here,
We seem to concentrate on who is at fault and not on the multiple other reasons behind this crash, which bears similiaraties with many other accidents/incidents we saw in the past.
We keep telling ourselves here, it is cultural, pilot errors , lack of CRM, ATHR malfunction or whatever we know best, mainly to ease ourselves in the belief that since we are not Koreans, know how to use automation and have a sound CRM and just culture in place in our own environment , such thing could not happen to us.
If you want to prevent reccurrence and improve Safety today we should be looking as systemic issues to improve that system , just not apportion blame ( or fault) to a few individuals and move on .
For me, just looking at the facts list so far, training ( in broad sense), ability to maintain hand flyings skills , crew pairing, airline SOP , ATC , Crew briefings, Notams redaction and decoding, etc..should also be looked at carefully in addition ,and then get a broader view as to why a basic task such as monitoring airspeed was not performed.
Then instead of blaming individuals, and identifying the probable causes, also propose how to correct all those issues.
Then we need to have a strong regulator who will enforce those recommendations.
Maybe then we will start to see these kinds of accidents disappear.
We seem to concentrate on who is at fault and not on the multiple other reasons behind this crash, which bears similiaraties with many other accidents/incidents we saw in the past.
We keep telling ourselves here, it is cultural, pilot errors , lack of CRM, ATHR malfunction or whatever we know best, mainly to ease ourselves in the belief that since we are not Koreans, know how to use automation and have a sound CRM and just culture in place in our own environment , such thing could not happen to us.
If you want to prevent reccurrence and improve Safety today we should be looking as systemic issues to improve that system , just not apportion blame ( or fault) to a few individuals and move on .
For me, just looking at the facts list so far, training ( in broad sense), ability to maintain hand flyings skills , crew pairing, airline SOP , ATC , Crew briefings, Notams redaction and decoding, etc..should also be looked at carefully in addition ,and then get a broader view as to why a basic task such as monitoring airspeed was not performed.
Then instead of blaming individuals, and identifying the probable causes, also propose how to correct all those issues.
Then we need to have a strong regulator who will enforce those recommendations.
Maybe then we will start to see these kinds of accidents disappear.
ATC Watcher 
“… instead of blaming individuals, and identifying the probable causes, also propose how to correct all those issues.
Then we need to have a strong regulator who will enforce those recommendations.”
In all countries, but are they able (willing) to learn?
“… instead of blaming individuals, and identifying the probable causes, also propose how to correct all those issues.
Then we need to have a strong regulator who will enforce those recommendations.”
In all countries, but are they able (willing) to learn?
safetypee etal
This isn't a deficiency in just a few select countries. A strong regulator doesn't solve the problem unless their is a standard to regulate against.
Just who is expected to write such a standard?
Individual airline training departments ?
ATC Watcher 
“… instead of blaming individuals, and identifying the probable causes, also propose how to correct all those issues.
Then we need to have a strong regulator who will enforce those recommendations.”
In all countries, but are they able (willing) to learn?
“… instead of blaming individuals, and identifying the probable causes, also propose how to correct all those issues.
Then we need to have a strong regulator who will enforce those recommendations.”
In all countries, but are they able (willing) to learn?
Just who is expected to write such a standard?
Individual airline training departments ?
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NTSB says Asiana captain worried about visual landing
News which was released at the start of a daylong National Transportation Safety Board hearing into the accident.
"The Asiana Airlines captain who crashed a Boeing 777 at San Francisco International Airport in July told investigators he was stressed out and "very concerned" about attempting a visual approach because the runway's automatic warning systems were out of service due to construction, according to an investigative report released Wednesday.
Lee Kang Kuk, a 46-year-old pilot who was landing the big jet for his first time at San Francisco, "stated it was very difficult to perform a visual approach with a heavy airplane." The jet crash landed after approaching low and slow in an accident that left three dead and more than 150 injured.
"
NTSB says Asiana captain worried about visual landing | Fox News
A Tweet of John Croft which is Senior Editor - Avionics and Safety for Aviation Week says:
"Asiana 214 in FLCH mode on shrt final.Crew added pitch;autothrottles did not respond due to FLCH, speed dropped"
Live Tweets from @ABCaviation:
"automation is a tool to aid the pilot, not replace the pilot"
cockpit voice recorder transcript from @AsianaAirlines 214 crash reveals two calls for a go-around seconds before crash
pilots of @AsianaAirlines 214 received an audible alert of low speed 11 seconds before impacting sea wall at SFO
via web
a go-around was called for seconds before Asiana flt 214 crashed at SFO
"The Asiana Airlines captain who crashed a Boeing 777 at San Francisco International Airport in July told investigators he was stressed out and "very concerned" about attempting a visual approach because the runway's automatic warning systems were out of service due to construction, according to an investigative report released Wednesday.
Lee Kang Kuk, a 46-year-old pilot who was landing the big jet for his first time at San Francisco, "stated it was very difficult to perform a visual approach with a heavy airplane." The jet crash landed after approaching low and slow in an accident that left three dead and more than 150 injured.
"
NTSB says Asiana captain worried about visual landing | Fox News
A Tweet of John Croft which is Senior Editor - Avionics and Safety for Aviation Week says:
"Asiana 214 in FLCH mode on shrt final.Crew added pitch;autothrottles did not respond due to FLCH, speed dropped"
Live Tweets from @ABCaviation:
"automation is a tool to aid the pilot, not replace the pilot"
cockpit voice recorder transcript from @AsianaAirlines 214 crash reveals two calls for a go-around seconds before crash
pilots of @AsianaAirlines 214 received an audible alert of low speed 11 seconds before impacting sea wall at SFO
via web
a go-around was called for seconds before Asiana flt 214 crashed at SFO
Last edited by 1stspotter; 11th Dec 2013 at 13:26.
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Live NTSB hearing
The hearing on the Asiana B777 crash at SFO can be followed live with video and audio here. The hearing will take the whole day till 8 PM ET.
National Transportation Safety Board
What is being said is live written in the window next to the video. At the moment the pilot who did test flights on B777 prototype is being heared.
National Transportation Safety Board
What is being said is live written in the window next to the video. At the moment the pilot who did test flights on B777 prototype is being heared.
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it is about blame
captain worried? first off, which guy was captain, the check pilot or the newly type rated guy?
wrong mode? who selects right mode?
if this captain was in a department store, taking an escalator from second floor to the third floor and the escalator stopped moving...would he just stand there?
or would he climb the stairs before him...or even turn around about face and go down to the second floor?
ATC watcher, how can it be crew pairing? It was a check ride.
training, crm, culture? come on.
hand flying skills...who is to blame on faulty hand flying skills? is it the korean licensing body? is it the airline? is it the guy who is driving the plane?
certainly those big things sticking up in the console of the airplane had to be noticed by the pilots at some time in their careers.
indeed, how could they make the plane takeoff without moving the throttles forward, even while clicking on the auto throttles?
should we blame someone for not having a memory item checklist: if slow, push throttles forward manually?
maybe we need a checklist to make sure we put on our pants before we put on our shoes?
oh, thanks for posting the link to the live feed...interesting, hope you all can watch it...may even be an archive to watch it later.
testimony said that the crew did push throttles forward
but
obviously too late to do anything.
and no attempt to change flightpath/glidepath with controls.
and then three seconds later bam
so, the crew did know how to move throttles, they just didn't do it in time to make a difference.
even though papi would show them low
even though airpseed indicator would show them slow.
some people would call this: behind the plane
captain worried? first off, which guy was captain, the check pilot or the newly type rated guy?
wrong mode? who selects right mode?
if this captain was in a department store, taking an escalator from second floor to the third floor and the escalator stopped moving...would he just stand there?
or would he climb the stairs before him...or even turn around about face and go down to the second floor?
ATC watcher, how can it be crew pairing? It was a check ride.
training, crm, culture? come on.
hand flying skills...who is to blame on faulty hand flying skills? is it the korean licensing body? is it the airline? is it the guy who is driving the plane?
certainly those big things sticking up in the console of the airplane had to be noticed by the pilots at some time in their careers.
indeed, how could they make the plane takeoff without moving the throttles forward, even while clicking on the auto throttles?
should we blame someone for not having a memory item checklist: if slow, push throttles forward manually?
maybe we need a checklist to make sure we put on our pants before we put on our shoes?
oh, thanks for posting the link to the live feed...interesting, hope you all can watch it...may even be an archive to watch it later.
testimony said that the crew did push throttles forward
but
obviously too late to do anything.
and no attempt to change flightpath/glidepath with controls.
and then three seconds later bam
so, the crew did know how to move throttles, they just didn't do it in time to make a difference.
even though papi would show them low
even though airpseed indicator would show them slow.
some people would call this: behind the plane
Last edited by flarepilot; 11th Dec 2013 at 13:59.
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Transcript of cockpit voice recorder released
The transcript of the cockpit voice recorder of the Asiana flight that crashed at SFO has been released by the NTSB
http://dms.ntsb.gov/public%2F55000-5...3%2F544904.pdf
http://dms.ntsb.gov/public%2F55000-5...3%2F544904.pdf
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Flarepilot
Can you read again what i said. AT did as published did as what the pilot selected. If you want to find fault, yes of course its the pilots fault by selecting inappropriate mode at that particular phase of flight and also pilots failure to understand the modes he was using. Of course sir if you do fly 777 you would be in SPD LNAV VS or FPA. Why didnt these modes used at that phase? Only the pilot involved knows.
Bubbers
Look out the window yes sir above and beyond.
Can you read again what i said. AT did as published did as what the pilot selected. If you want to find fault, yes of course its the pilots fault by selecting inappropriate mode at that particular phase of flight and also pilots failure to understand the modes he was using. Of course sir if you do fly 777 you would be in SPD LNAV VS or FPA. Why didnt these modes used at that phase? Only the pilot involved knows.
Bubbers
Look out the window yes sir above and beyond.
Lee Kang Kuk, a 46-year-old pilot who was landing the big jet for his first time at San Francisco, "stated it was very difficult to perform a visual approach with a heavy airplane."
Sorry, but anyone who thinks performing a visual approach on a beautiful summer day is "very difficult" has absolutely no business sitting in the pointy end of a commercial jet.
Sorry, but anyone who thinks performing a visual approach on a beautiful summer day is "very difficult" has absolutely no business sitting in the pointy end of a commercial jet.
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lomapaseo :
Standards are defined by ICAO and the National regulating agencies. (although nowadays it starts to be more the other way around )
Yes Individual (airlines) training departments should enforce those standards.
Then the Regulator should check and do a quality audit at regular intervals.
If deficiencies are registered, the National regulator should have authority to take action .
But today this is still utopia land we all agree...
flarepilot:
Pairing a newly promoted check Capt on one of his first check-rides with someone himself on one of its first 777 flights is not exactly a very good idea I would argue.
Training : absolutely ! on performing regularly visual apps for instance.
Maintaining hand flying skills responsibility ?: all the 3 you mentionned. Yes.
Was lsitening to the NTSB debate the last hour before their lunch .Interesting. One comment from the Boeing Chief test pilot : " When we design an airplane we asume crews are very good at monitoring airspseed "
That put a smile on some faces .
Just who is expected to write such a standard?
Individual airline training departments ?
Individual airline training departments ?
Yes Individual (airlines) training departments should enforce those standards.
Then the Regulator should check and do a quality audit at regular intervals.
If deficiencies are registered, the National regulator should have authority to take action .
But today this is still utopia land we all agree...
flarepilot:
how can it be crew pairing? It was a check ride.
training, crm, culture? come on.
hand flying skills...who is to blame on faulty hand flying skills? is it the korean licensing body? is it the airline? is it the guy who is driving the plane?
training, crm, culture? come on.
hand flying skills...who is to blame on faulty hand flying skills? is it the korean licensing body? is it the airline? is it the guy who is driving the plane?
Training : absolutely ! on performing regularly visual apps for instance.
Maintaining hand flying skills responsibility ?: all the 3 you mentionned. Yes.
Was lsitening to the NTSB debate the last hour before their lunch .Interesting. One comment from the Boeing Chief test pilot : " When we design an airplane we asume crews are very good at monitoring airspseed "
That put a smile on some faces .
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VERY Interesting!!
Now there are unconfirmed reports that the LHS pilot (the new guy) was operating on an invalid pilot’s license, issued by a training organization that recently had its authority to conduct training for pilots revoked. 
Air Rabbit:
That would be a pity, if true. It would put all the blame on that single snippet of information. My gut feeling is that there is much more to this accident. It really can't be that simple. Asiana would really love that,as it would (almost) clear their name entirely.
That would be a pity, if true. It would put all the blame on that single snippet of information. My gut feeling is that there is much more to this accident. It really can't be that simple. Asiana would really love that,as it would (almost) clear their name entirely.