PIA pilot suspended at LBA for violating rules!
Originally Posted by SetStandard
Oh no.... Wait, fatigue cannot be measured by some little handheld machine?
Fatigue Management | Driver Fatigue Management | Fatigue Management Plan
Originally Posted by cockney steve
Can't manage that?....you can't manage a command -post responsibility, then.
tough cheese, nobody said life's fair.
tough cheese, nobody said life's fair.
Have surgery to fix the problem, change your lifestyle to prevent re-occurrence and prove it's fixed by scans, stress ECG?
Get your medical back, resume your job (after a year or so).
Diagnosed with an addiction problem - you are no longer fit to fly, your medical (and the risk to the public) is suspended.
Have councelling to fix the problem, change your lifestyle to prevent re-occurrence and prove it's fixed by 12 months measured abstinence?
Get your medical back, resume your job (after a year or so).
UK CAP 789 - Para 4.13 :
The CAA has a well-defined protocol when it is informed that a medical certificate holder (flight crew or air traffic controller) may be misusing alcohol or drugs. For example, this would be activated if a pilot had failed a breathalyser test whilst performing an aviation function.
The person would be medically assessed, including blood testing, and a decision made whether there was alcohol or drug dependency that could be a risk to flight safety. If that were so, the pilot’s medical certificate would be temporarily suspended. He would then be invited to take part in a treatment and rehabilitation schedule. If that were successful, the pilot would be returned to flying with the requirement to provide regular reports and to attend follow-up assessments. Abstinence would be required. The CAA has found that approximately 85% of professional pilots with such problems can be returned to flying under this regime.
The person would be medically assessed, including blood testing, and a decision made whether there was alcohol or drug dependency that could be a risk to flight safety. If that were so, the pilot’s medical certificate would be temporarily suspended. He would then be invited to take part in a treatment and rehabilitation schedule. If that were successful, the pilot would be returned to flying with the requirement to provide regular reports and to attend follow-up assessments. Abstinence would be required. The CAA has found that approximately 85% of professional pilots with such problems can be returned to flying under this regime.
There never has been an obligation on operators to take any action whatsoever with regard to testing. Testing is permitted only when a constable in uniform reasonably suspects that the person is committing an offence under the Act.
Last edited by Checkboard; 27th Sep 2013 at 11:07.
One more step down the road to random testing in the UK, won't be long now.
In fact they took hair samples to check for drugs as well as alcohol.
I believe many airlines have similar contracts these days so nothing new about random checks.
In circa 40 years of airline operation I have never flew with any crew member who was anywhere near intoxicated - all the colleagues I came across were well aware of the responsibility to be fit to operate.
Fatigue is a far bigger issue.
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Well it looks like PIA have learned something from last weeks LBA incident and are set to implement changes to pre-flight checks
PIA Increases Pre-Flight Checks System Monitoring for its Cockpit and Cabin Crew
Lahore, 22 September, 2013 - To assure fool proof aviation safety in aircraft, PIA has increased strict monitoring of its Pre-Flight Checks System for both Cockpit and Cabin Crew with immediate effect.
Director Flight Operations has been assigned the task to personally monitor the Pre-Flight Check System on all flights with zero tolerance, this was stated by PIA spokesperson.
PIA Management has deplored the Leeds-Bradford incident in which one of its pilots was found in violation of aviation safety regulations. Though, the management has taken immediate action by grounding and suspending the pilot but to reassure its valued passengers a drive of strict monitoring is now in effect.
He said though, the Leeds-Bradford episode was an isolated incident but PIA is highly concerned about the strict monitoring of conduct of cockpit and cabin crew. It is to be assured that Aviation Safety Regulations which are already in place will be followed with high degree of certainty.
Director Flight Operations has instructed Chief Medical Officer to depute medical staff at all check-in points to ensure a fool proof monitoring. He has issued instructions to all concerned reinvigorating the need to implement safety regulations. Management has vowed to immediately suspend/ground safety rules violator on the spot which may lead to his/her termination from service, the spokesperson concluded.
Source: PIA Press Release (September 22, 2013)
Lahore, 22 September, 2013 - To assure fool proof aviation safety in aircraft, PIA has increased strict monitoring of its Pre-Flight Checks System for both Cockpit and Cabin Crew with immediate effect.
Director Flight Operations has been assigned the task to personally monitor the Pre-Flight Check System on all flights with zero tolerance, this was stated by PIA spokesperson.
PIA Management has deplored the Leeds-Bradford incident in which one of its pilots was found in violation of aviation safety regulations. Though, the management has taken immediate action by grounding and suspending the pilot but to reassure its valued passengers a drive of strict monitoring is now in effect.
He said though, the Leeds-Bradford episode was an isolated incident but PIA is highly concerned about the strict monitoring of conduct of cockpit and cabin crew. It is to be assured that Aviation Safety Regulations which are already in place will be followed with high degree of certainty.
Director Flight Operations has instructed Chief Medical Officer to depute medical staff at all check-in points to ensure a fool proof monitoring. He has issued instructions to all concerned reinvigorating the need to implement safety regulations. Management has vowed to immediately suspend/ground safety rules violator on the spot which may lead to his/her termination from service, the spokesperson concluded.
Source: PIA Press Release (September 22, 2013)
Last edited by LBIA; 23rd Sep 2013 at 18:54.
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I agree. This thread is about alcohol, but the part I take issue with is
when there are far bigger issues in this industry.
Im all for random tests, I have no problem with them at all. There is a set limit in all countries for blood alcohol level, it varies by different country and it is our job to comply with that level. If you suspect that you are anywhere near close to the limit, then you call in sick, that is basic common sense and airmanship. Just remember though that two individuals being tested in different countries can blow the same level of blood alcohol, but one is under the limit and one is "drunk" - go figure??
From the 8 years I have been in this industry it is not a problem. Fatigue, thats a problem. Fatigue just gets swept under the carpet though because we have Flight Time Limitations that some one has decided will give us enough rest. So alls fine and dandy then. No accidents with fatigue as a contributing factor.
Wrong. It takes the individual not working for a company where they only get paid when they fly. And the individual not needing that money in the bank at the end of the month to pay for their families. In some companies, you don't go to work; you don't get paid. Thats a whole other different topic though I hear you say.....
Going by the number of pilots arrested and convicted for being intoxicated when on duty then yes, it is a problem.
Im all for random tests, I have no problem with them at all. There is a set limit in all countries for blood alcohol level, it varies by different country and it is our job to comply with that level. If you suspect that you are anywhere near close to the limit, then you call in sick, that is basic common sense and airmanship. Just remember though that two individuals being tested in different countries can blow the same level of blood alcohol, but one is under the limit and one is "drunk" - go figure??
From the 8 years I have been in this industry it is not a problem. Fatigue, thats a problem. Fatigue just gets swept under the carpet though because we have Flight Time Limitations that some one has decided will give us enough rest. So alls fine and dandy then. No accidents with fatigue as a contributing factor.
Report sick, ASR it. Trouble is that takes courage and the individual taking some personal responsibility doesn't it?
I have just stumbled on the case of a man who was roaring drunk because there was enough yeast living in his gut to convert the starch that he had eaten into alcohol. I do know that most, (all?), jurisdictions allow for some blood alcohol from this cause but if you know that you have not been drinking when you are accused of being over the limit this might be the cause.
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[Una Due Tfc][If this pilot did indeed turn up intoxicated before his flight then of course he should face punishment]
Hey Guys, Its a 100% Breath Analyser Check before each flight in our part of the world. Accepted level is "0"!
Copy pasting part of the national regulators rule book:
ACTION ON POSITIVE TEST
Any crew member that tests positive for the first time or refuses to undergo the PFMC/operates the aircraft without undergoing breath analyser test/attempt to evade the test procedure by leaving the airport premises shall be considered as BA positive. Such crew members shall be kept off flying duty and their license/ approval suspended for a period of 3 months. In case the crew member is detected positive during PFMC for the second time, the license/approval shall be suspended for 5 years. For the purpose of this requirement, any crew member who has failed in PFMC before 13th November 2009 shall be considered as BA positive for the first time. In case the crew member fails in PFMC again after 13th November 2009, it shall be considered BA positive second time.
An Instructor/Examiner/Check crew/Cabin Crew In-charge detected positive during the pre-flight medical examination will lose such ratings/authorisation for at least 3 years in addition to the action as mentioned above.
All such violations shall be endorsed on the individual’s licence by DGCA.
In sum, a second chance is indeed given.....and why not....like so many have rightly posted.
Hey Guys, Its a 100% Breath Analyser Check before each flight in our part of the world. Accepted level is "0"!
Copy pasting part of the national regulators rule book:
ACTION ON POSITIVE TEST
Any crew member that tests positive for the first time or refuses to undergo the PFMC/operates the aircraft without undergoing breath analyser test/attempt to evade the test procedure by leaving the airport premises shall be considered as BA positive. Such crew members shall be kept off flying duty and their license/ approval suspended for a period of 3 months. In case the crew member is detected positive during PFMC for the second time, the license/approval shall be suspended for 5 years. For the purpose of this requirement, any crew member who has failed in PFMC before 13th November 2009 shall be considered as BA positive for the first time. In case the crew member fails in PFMC again after 13th November 2009, it shall be considered BA positive second time.
An Instructor/Examiner/Check crew/Cabin Crew In-charge detected positive during the pre-flight medical examination will lose such ratings/authorisation for at least 3 years in addition to the action as mentioned above.
All such violations shall be endorsed on the individual’s licence by DGCA.
In sum, a second chance is indeed given.....and why not....like so many have rightly posted.
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bral
This isn't a willy waving competition of how bad your roster has been changing between late/early reports. You have no idea where in the world I have flown or who for, and I can assure you, I have stories that would give you nightmares, I haven't always worked for a UK company.
If after 30+ years in this industry you are droning on about it, all due respect, but you are typical of the current generation of senior Captains / middle managers who have allowed fatigue, zero hours contracts, pay to fly etc. to enter and gain ground in the industry. Then at some point in the next few years, you'll retire (I imagine) and leave it for my generation of Pilots to pick up the pieces.
But, alas, as you have said previously, this thread is about that "problem" in aviation of having a blood alcohol level that exceeds the local set limit. The difference is, even after 8 years in this industry, I don't see that as a problem. I see it as stupid, reckless and a lapse of ones professional standards that we must all bring to work with us every day of our working life, but I can see that there are greater problems that the industry faces (fatigue, zero hours contracts, pay to fly etc.).
Just my 2pence worth. I shall leave you all too it, as I now have to go to work........
This isn't a willy waving competition of how bad your roster has been changing between late/early reports. You have no idea where in the world I have flown or who for, and I can assure you, I have stories that would give you nightmares, I haven't always worked for a UK company.
If after 30+ years in this industry you are droning on about it, all due respect, but you are typical of the current generation of senior Captains / middle managers who have allowed fatigue, zero hours contracts, pay to fly etc. to enter and gain ground in the industry. Then at some point in the next few years, you'll retire (I imagine) and leave it for my generation of Pilots to pick up the pieces.
But, alas, as you have said previously, this thread is about that "problem" in aviation of having a blood alcohol level that exceeds the local set limit. The difference is, even after 8 years in this industry, I don't see that as a problem. I see it as stupid, reckless and a lapse of ones professional standards that we must all bring to work with us every day of our working life, but I can see that there are greater problems that the industry faces (fatigue, zero hours contracts, pay to fly etc.).
Just my 2pence worth. I shall leave you all too it, as I now have to go to work........
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interesting article
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-New...ng-regulations
an extract from the article
The email also narrated the incident, as informed by the co-pilot of Capt
Irfan, and said that right from the time of the hotel pick-up, ground journey to the airport, baggage check-in and walk to the aircraft through multiple security checks, nowhere did the captain’s behaviour reflected that he was intoxicated.
“The last security check prior to entering the aircraft irritated the captain
and he said so to the security personnel. He then sat in his seat and started the cockpit preparation,” it said.
“After a few minutes, the PIA station manager came and informed that the UK CAA would like to speak to him outside the aircraft and then take him to their office for an alcohol check. They did not want to check the first officer (F/O) so it was not a routine random check but specific for the captain.
an extract from the article
The email also narrated the incident, as informed by the co-pilot of Capt
Irfan, and said that right from the time of the hotel pick-up, ground journey to the airport, baggage check-in and walk to the aircraft through multiple security checks, nowhere did the captain’s behaviour reflected that he was intoxicated.
“The last security check prior to entering the aircraft irritated the captain
and he said so to the security personnel. He then sat in his seat and started the cockpit preparation,” it said.
“After a few minutes, the PIA station manager came and informed that the UK CAA would like to speak to him outside the aircraft and then take him to their office for an alcohol check. They did not want to check the first officer (F/O) so it was not a routine random check but specific for the captain.
Last edited by STN Ramp Rat; 29th Sep 2013 at 06:15.
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BBC reporting sentence BBC News - Pilot Irfan Faiz jailed for drinking before flight
9 months incarceration.
9 months incarceration.
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Problem after problem-Pakistan
Pakistan seems a most problematic nation, not least in aviation spheres. The air accident stats within the country and the technical issues related to PIA's fleet are serious indeed.
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nats atcos are randomly tested. somebody from mangement will ask you to accompany them to the tester for the test. they even take you off operational duties if your name is randomly chosen
Pakistan seems a most problematic nation, not least in aviation spheres. The air accident stats within the country and the technical issues related to PIA's fleet are serious indeed.
“The agency (EASA) had to learn that PIA aircraft subject to SAFA inspections over the last 12 months have revealed numerous maintenance-related findings. We make reference to the SAFA inspection reports AESA E2011 – 361 and 455, CAA N 2011 – 24, -38, and -46, CAA UK 2011 – 187 and -664, DGAC/F 2011 – 608, -878, -1138,-1370,-1560,-1811,-2084 and -2274, and finally ENAC IT 2011 – 569.
“In every single case, the class of action taken resulted in corrective actions before flight. It is obvious that all referred SAFA reports related to PIA aircraft on Pakistan register show a systematic deficiency regarding the planning and execution of the required maintenance tasks.
“From this we have to draw the conclusion that the continued surveillance by the CAA Pakistan is considered ineffective.
Consequently, we are not any more in a position to rely on the statement of CAA Pakistan as a mitigating measure for the continuing validity of your approval.
“In every single case, the class of action taken resulted in corrective actions before flight. It is obvious that all referred SAFA reports related to PIA aircraft on Pakistan register show a systematic deficiency regarding the planning and execution of the required maintenance tasks.
“From this we have to draw the conclusion that the continued surveillance by the CAA Pakistan is considered ineffective.
Consequently, we are not any more in a position to rely on the statement of CAA Pakistan as a mitigating measure for the continuing validity of your approval.
PIA spokesperson Sultan Hassan said that the European Aviation Safety Agency had not raised any such issue with the PIA. He added that the PIA was not facing any ban threat to its operations in Europe
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During the fermentation process yeasts always produce carbon dioxide gas as well as alcohol. It is a result of the chemical conversion from carbohydrates (sugar or starch) to ethanol, and it is an incomplete conversion with carbon dioxide produced in various amounts depending on the conditions. If this person really had a yeast factory in his gut strong enough to produce intoxication I would certainly suspect that he had some really serious gas 
and other colic like problems too. With such a condition you won't be able to fly anyway 
He may even be hypoxic also as carbon dioxide can go through the gut wall.
and other colic like problems too. With such a condition you won't be able to fly anyway He may even be hypoxic also as carbon dioxide can go through the gut wall.
[Una Due Tfc][If this pilot did indeed turn up intoxicated before his flight then of course he should face punishment]
Hey Guys, Its a 100% Breath Analyser Check before each flight in our part of the world. Accepted level is "0"!
Copy pasting part of the national regulators rule book:
ACTION ON POSITIVE TEST
Any crew member that tests positive for the first time or refuses to undergo the PFMC/operates the aircraft without undergoing breath analyser test/attempt to evade the test procedure by leaving the airport premises shall be considered as BA positive. Such crew members shall be kept off flying duty and their license/ approval suspended for a period of 3 months. In case the crew member is detected positive during PFMC for the second time, the license/approval shall be suspended for 5 years. For the purpose of this requirement, any crew member who has failed in PFMC before 13th November 2009 shall be considered as BA positive for the first time. In case the crew member fails in PFMC again after 13th November 2009, it shall be considered BA positive second time.
An Instructor/Examiner/Check crew/Cabin Crew In-charge detected positive during the pre-flight medical examination will lose such ratings/authorisation for at least 3 years in addition to the action as mentioned above.
All such violations shall be endorsed on the individual’s licence by DGCA.
In sum, a second chance is indeed given.....and why not....like so many have rightly posted.
Hey Guys, Its a 100% Breath Analyser Check before each flight in our part of the world. Accepted level is "0"!
Copy pasting part of the national regulators rule book:
ACTION ON POSITIVE TEST
Any crew member that tests positive for the first time or refuses to undergo the PFMC/operates the aircraft without undergoing breath analyser test/attempt to evade the test procedure by leaving the airport premises shall be considered as BA positive. Such crew members shall be kept off flying duty and their license/ approval suspended for a period of 3 months. In case the crew member is detected positive during PFMC for the second time, the license/approval shall be suspended for 5 years. For the purpose of this requirement, any crew member who has failed in PFMC before 13th November 2009 shall be considered as BA positive for the first time. In case the crew member fails in PFMC again after 13th November 2009, it shall be considered BA positive second time.
An Instructor/Examiner/Check crew/Cabin Crew In-charge detected positive during the pre-flight medical examination will lose such ratings/authorisation for at least 3 years in addition to the action as mentioned above.
All such violations shall be endorsed on the individual’s licence by DGCA.
In sum, a second chance is indeed given.....and why not....like so many have rightly posted.
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Err, that sounds like a police state to me... Wonder which one, probably close to the Middle E...
http://dgca.nic.in/cars/D5f-f3.pdf
Blowing positive for the first time gets you in a lot more trouble than a three month suspended license in the U.S. But, folks still do it regular as clockwork...
To assure fool proof aviation safety
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In France long distance bus’s are equipped with a system which requires the driver to blow into a device, whereby if a trace of alcohol is detected,The engine of the bus will not start. I realise such a system is not full proof, if for example the driver engages another to blow. With some careful planning a similar system could be installed in cockpits ?
