Ryanair secrets?
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Dan, as usual, great posts. Pilots are often placed under terrible pressure by inept , gung ho management. I admired a buddy of mine who claimed that he would never "risk innocent lives placed under his care, and/or, knowingly break the law. But, having the misfortune to work for a rotten charter outfit by default, I pitched up during some East Med crisis where notams suggested "avoiding" a certain airspace. My flight plan took me right through the crisis zone. I requested a new routing. Denied. Next, CP on the phone with his ex Cranwell -"problems old boy " ? He pursuaded me that there was no crisis, the CAA had shot themselves in the foot & that all our competitors were "twerps, old boy". I went. The only one in the crisis zone. I did put on my landing lights & secured the cabin. FO thought I was a Wooze !
Got home, poured muself a Gin & asked; Did I endanger safety of my pax ? YES. Did I break the law.......not really. Was I happy/ NO. I left.
My heart goes out to those professional pilots who are regularly uncomfortable complying with very dodgy interpretations of safety regulations in order to place food on the table. They are not as fortunate as myself for being in that position at a time when professionalism was awarded with a job offer.
Got home, poured muself a Gin & asked; Did I endanger safety of my pax ? YES. Did I break the law.......not really. Was I happy/ NO. I left.
My heart goes out to those professional pilots who are regularly uncomfortable complying with very dodgy interpretations of safety regulations in order to place food on the table. They are not as fortunate as myself for being in that position at a time when professionalism was awarded with a job offer.
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Landflap,
Aren't many aircrew in what is known as a Double Bind?
"A double bind is an emotionally distressing dilemma in communication in which an individual (or group) receives two or more conflicting messages, in which one message negates the other.
This creates a situation in which a successful response to one message results in a failed response to the other (and vice versa), so that the person will automatically be wrong regardless of response. The double bind occurs when the person cannot confront the inherent dilemma, and therefore cannot resolve it or opt out of the situation."
Double bind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Good luck all and do the right thing!
Aren't many aircrew in what is known as a Double Bind?
"A double bind is an emotionally distressing dilemma in communication in which an individual (or group) receives two or more conflicting messages, in which one message negates the other.
This creates a situation in which a successful response to one message results in a failed response to the other (and vice versa), so that the person will automatically be wrong regardless of response. The double bind occurs when the person cannot confront the inherent dilemma, and therefore cannot resolve it or opt out of the situation."
Double bind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Good luck all and do the right thing!
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22 Aug 2013 Ryanair Sues John Goss - High Court Dublin
16 Aug 2013 Ryanair Sues Channel 4/Blakeway Productions, Associated Newspapers (MailOnline) and Mirror Group. A writ of Summons has also been issued in Northern Ireland against the Belfast Telegraph.
Should these cases actually make it to court I'll attend the public area to sit quietly and listen. Unless of course the cases are being held in camera.
16 Aug 2013 Ryanair Sues Channel 4/Blakeway Productions, Associated Newspapers (MailOnline) and Mirror Group. A writ of Summons has also been issued in Northern Ireland against the Belfast Telegraph.
Should these cases actually make it to court I'll attend the public area to sit quietly and listen. Unless of course the cases are being held in camera.
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And there's at least another 4 or 5 other individuals currently showing actions filed against them in the Irish High Court, at least 4 of which are pilots.
So plenty of opportunities to "sit quietly and listen" to what they have to say - if you can find room after all the world's press and media have taken the best seats of course ....
So plenty of opportunities to "sit quietly and listen" to what they have to say - if you can find room after all the world's press and media have taken the best seats of course ....
Last edited by Aldente; 23rd Aug 2013 at 09:10.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Come on, Sky9 - tell us what you did with your extra '2000kgs'. Did you increase CMR by 2000kg? Did you hold for 40+ minutes? I'm intrigued. Presumably you had some idea why you carried it? As someone who spent half his flying life short of fuel I LOVE lots of it, but cannot see the point in tankering it around for no reason.
I didn't carry extra fuel unless there was a good reason to do so.
If there was a good reason I carried enough to make a difference. There is absolutely no reason to carry fuel when the weather is fine and there are no delays, every reason in the book to carry fuel if the destination is forecast Cat3. Likewise if there are thunderstorms at the destination being able to hold gives time for the thunderstorm to pass through or leave you with sufficient fuel to go to the alternate knowing that others will be doing the same.
I would suggest that you read 2.1 page 17 of the Alicante incident.
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Margin fuel
Fuel choice and management is a hell of a good discussion point, considering recent events.
"Extra" margin fuel is not at the complete discretion of the captain. If there are valid reasons why additional fuel is required, the captain must accept this position and correctly assess the various required amounts to arrive at "minimum fuel". The computer generated company flight plan fuel does not normally account for these additional fuel amounts, but the captain is compelled to do so.
The expert assessment of the actual amounts will depend on the experience and skill of the pilot. The expertly assessed additive is related to regulations and circumstances, and is not related to the profit culture of the operator.
Different pilots will have different expert assessments of the additive fuel required, but this does not mean the operator can influence a race to the bottom with incentives and disincentives. Perspectives might include sufficient fuel for a more distant alternate that is judged to be less busy when the destination is closed. Ideally, captain and operator could consult for the best solution.
The important point is that planned use, 5%, missed approach, then proceed to alternate plus 30 minutes is only sufficient under textbook circumstances. Other circumstances usually raise the minimum fuel required. This additive is required fuel, not extra fuel.
There are other considerations for a legally compliant flight, including conserving and continuing in-flight assessment of required fuel.
"Extra" margin fuel is not at the complete discretion of the captain. If there are valid reasons why additional fuel is required, the captain must accept this position and correctly assess the various required amounts to arrive at "minimum fuel". The computer generated company flight plan fuel does not normally account for these additional fuel amounts, but the captain is compelled to do so.
The expert assessment of the actual amounts will depend on the experience and skill of the pilot. The expertly assessed additive is related to regulations and circumstances, and is not related to the profit culture of the operator.
Different pilots will have different expert assessments of the additive fuel required, but this does not mean the operator can influence a race to the bottom with incentives and disincentives. Perspectives might include sufficient fuel for a more distant alternate that is judged to be less busy when the destination is closed. Ideally, captain and operator could consult for the best solution.
The important point is that planned use, 5%, missed approach, then proceed to alternate plus 30 minutes is only sufficient under textbook circumstances. Other circumstances usually raise the minimum fuel required. This additive is required fuel, not extra fuel.
There are other considerations for a legally compliant flight, including conserving and continuing in-flight assessment of required fuel.
Last edited by autoflight; 24th Aug 2013 at 07:43.
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I think Ryanair pilots are using the flight and passenger safety to argue their discomfort in relation to their employment contracts. I think it is not a clean way to vindicate their employment status.
There is no secret about the working conditions. Pilots have been hired by an agency not by the airline. Conditions are explained to you ... If you work you earn money, you have no right to social security or unemployment benefit. Not even you will have the right to a pension for retirement because you have not paid into social security.
What O´Leary is doing is legal.
There is no secret about the working conditions. Pilots have been hired by an agency not by the airline. Conditions are explained to you ... If you work you earn money, you have no right to social security or unemployment benefit. Not even you will have the right to a pension for retirement because you have not paid into social security.
What O´Leary is doing is legal.
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"What O´Leary is doing is legal. "
As presumably would the practice of towing aircraft to the holding point where they could start engines just before TOGA, hopefully allowing the requisite warmup time?
And I have yet to receive royalties for the bleeds off, packs-off, 1st pack on at 10,000ft, second on at 25,000ft procedure which I invented some time ago, when not quite myself, following discussion in the forum on 'bus unpressurised take-offs.
That in conjunction with 1st pack off at 25,000ft in the descent, followed by the 2nd pack at 10,000ft all finished off with a flourish by coasting onto the stand should save MO'L and the rest a real packet of fuel and therefore costs.
These fuel saving methods are presumably "legal", but are they safe and sensible?
I'd like to be a fly on the wall when it's proposed to the CAAs various, though judging by their recent record on (lack of) supervision and apparent subservience to BigCorp, they might even be actively considering the procedure?!
But I still claim the royalties....................................
And I have yet to receive royalties for the bleeds off, packs-off, 1st pack on at 10,000ft, second on at 25,000ft procedure which I invented some time ago, when not quite myself, following discussion in the forum on 'bus unpressurised take-offs.
That in conjunction with 1st pack off at 25,000ft in the descent, followed by the 2nd pack at 10,000ft all finished off with a flourish by coasting onto the stand should save MO'L and the rest a real packet of fuel and therefore costs.
These fuel saving methods are presumably "legal", but are they safe and sensible?
I'd like to be a fly on the wall when it's proposed to the CAAs various, though judging by their recent record on (lack of) supervision and apparent subservience to BigCorp, they might even be actively considering the procedure?!
But I still claim the royalties....................................
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"What O Leary's doing is legal"
In some countries it it legal to have sex with young children. Doesn't mean it's acceptable though does it.
In terms of their fuel policy, yes it is legal. Doesn't mean it's always safe though does it.
In terms of their employment/ contractor policy, some countries have tested it in court, and found it to be not legal. Some countries have yet to test it in court.
In terms of their fuel policy, yes it is legal. Doesn't mean it's always safe though does it.
In terms of their employment/ contractor policy, some countries have tested it in court, and found it to be not legal. Some countries have yet to test it in court.
Last edited by PURPLE PITOT; 24th Aug 2013 at 10:52.
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In terms of their employment/ contractor policy, some countries have tested it in court, and found it to be not legal. Some countries have yet to test it in court.
Is this really true? If so it should be heralded from the roof tops and thus stopped in its tracks and correct employment status conferred. but I'm yet to hear the cheers. If it has been found to be illegal in some countries what happened to the individuals; what happened to BRK & what happened to RYR? Big questions in need of answers.
Is this really true? If so it should be heralded from the roof tops and thus stopped in its tracks and correct employment status conferred. but I'm yet to hear the cheers. If it has been found to be illegal in some countries what happened to the individuals; what happened to BRK & what happened to RYR? Big questions in need of answers.
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NEWYEAR,
NO, What Ryanair is doing is NOT legal.
Ryanair is actively participating in False Selfemployment, which, according to EU legislation, is fraud.
The Employee, or what FR calls self employed pilot, is in fact according to this legislation a victim, no matter what contract he/she signed. Even more, EU legislation very clearly states that it is the responsibility of the employer to offer a Legal contract. the employee is at no time responsible for signing an illegal employment contract.
this is EU employment legislation, and Ireland, as a EU member state HAS to abide by this.
Ryanair pilots get their roster from FR, they get their leave from FR, they get their uniform from FR. THIS makes them employee, no matter what fraudulous and criminal contract FR gives you through fraudulant " companies" and the Brookfield Maffia.
I am more than willing to give my real name if FR wants me to by the way. My claims are all based on facts.
Mind you, I do not comment on their Safety, although they were refueling during a thunderstorm last month in CRL
Ryanair management are the Bullies of this Industry. i was once bullied at school, since then, I vowed to accept this loathfull behaviour anymore and get them to pay.
NO, What Ryanair is doing is NOT legal.
Ryanair is actively participating in False Selfemployment, which, according to EU legislation, is fraud.
The Employee, or what FR calls self employed pilot, is in fact according to this legislation a victim, no matter what contract he/she signed. Even more, EU legislation very clearly states that it is the responsibility of the employer to offer a Legal contract. the employee is at no time responsible for signing an illegal employment contract.
this is EU employment legislation, and Ireland, as a EU member state HAS to abide by this.
Ryanair pilots get their roster from FR, they get their leave from FR, they get their uniform from FR. THIS makes them employee, no matter what fraudulous and criminal contract FR gives you through fraudulant " companies" and the Brookfield Maffia.
I am more than willing to give my real name if FR wants me to by the way. My claims are all based on facts.
Mind you, I do not comment on their Safety, although they were refueling during a thunderstorm last month in CRL
Ryanair management are the Bullies of this Industry. i was once bullied at school, since then, I vowed to accept this loathfull behaviour anymore and get them to pay.
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If your company want you to take the legal minimum fuel then that is what they want you to take. They then run the risk that if there are any unforeseen circumstances where you are delayed in arriving at your destination then you are going to go below the company minimum fuel, which will either result in a divert and/or an emergency call. If we think that the legal minimum is not safe then surely its the regulatory authorities that we should be attacking and getting them to increase the minimum fuel that is required to be carried. Chanel 4 should do documentary on the state of the Aviation Authorities in Europe and how they manage the aviation systems in Europe. Do a comparison as to how the US FAA manages their patch. Would make interesting viewing.
Last edited by Best foot forward; 24th Aug 2013 at 15:30.
Well, it was a long time ago but I was based at JFK when a PanAm 747 diverted from JFK to EWR one night. Two engines flamed out after landing and I think he only had one running when he got to the gate.
The problem was that his Plog only showed the straight line distance from JFK and EWR which was about 27 nms. In actual fact, by the time you got out of the JFK traffic pattern into the EWR traffic pattern was probably in excess of 100 nms.
Not one of the PanAm crew had picked up on this shortfall.
That's how the FAA dealt with the problem in those days.
I did not ever have to get close to that problem for we had told our Plog provider never to accept an alternate closer than 150 nms.
The problem was that his Plog only showed the straight line distance from JFK and EWR which was about 27 nms. In actual fact, by the time you got out of the JFK traffic pattern into the EWR traffic pattern was probably in excess of 100 nms.
Not one of the PanAm crew had picked up on this shortfall.
That's how the FAA dealt with the problem in those days.
I did not ever have to get close to that problem for we had told our Plog provider never to accept an alternate closer than 150 nms.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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I thought this was an interesting blog on fuel policy and the Madrid divert.
Flight safety: Spanish aviation authority issues recommendations to Ryanair and the ICAO | AirObserver's Blog
Flight safety: Spanish aviation authority issues recommendations to Ryanair and the ICAO | AirObserver's Blog
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Captaintcas
In that case why do the IAA continue to provide an AOC to the company? I'm sure if what Ryanair are doing was illegal under EU rules, the IAA would tell them to change their employment policy or withdraw their AOC.
Ryanair is actively participating in False Selfemployment, which, according to EU legislation, is fraud.
The Employee, or what FR calls self employed pilot, is in fact according to this legislation a victim, no matter what contract he/she signed. Even more, EU legislation very clearly states that it is the responsibility of the employer to offer a Legal contract. the employee is at no time responsible for signing an illegal employment contract.
this is EU employment legislation, and Ireland, as a EU member state HAS to abide by this.
Ryanair pilots get their roster from FR, they get their leave from FR, they get their uniform from FR. THIS makes them employee, no matter what fraudulous and criminal contract FR gives you through fraudulant " companies" and the Brookfield Maffia.
The Employee, or what FR calls self employed pilot, is in fact according to this legislation a victim, no matter what contract he/she signed. Even more, EU legislation very clearly states that it is the responsibility of the employer to offer a Legal contract. the employee is at no time responsible for signing an illegal employment contract.
this is EU employment legislation, and Ireland, as a EU member state HAS to abide by this.
Ryanair pilots get their roster from FR, they get their leave from FR, they get their uniform from FR. THIS makes them employee, no matter what fraudulous and criminal contract FR gives you through fraudulant " companies" and the Brookfield Maffia.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Rec 19/13 is irrelevant since the PLOG fuel was calculated for the 'further' div. The fact that the crew did either not realise the facts due to the 'minimum' CMR 2000kg policy, or did not think about the sensible option compounded the problem.
I think someone else has raised the point that you cannot 'blame' RY for encouraging EU 'policy' on fuel - it is this itself that needs the focus.
It would be interesting to see what (if anything) RY have done since in 'instructions' and 'guidelines' to crews.
I think someone else has raised the point that you cannot 'blame' RY for encouraging EU 'policy' on fuel - it is this itself that needs the focus.
It would be interesting to see what (if anything) RY have done since in 'instructions' and 'guidelines' to crews.
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the IAA would tell them to change their employment policy or withdraw their AOC.
They won't even act on aviation matters, let alone employment law which is probably not within their mandate anyway.
You can forget that idea!
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 24th Aug 2013 at 23:55.
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Spanish ATC secrets
While not having any time for the antics of MoL and as the TV program was based mostly on the Madrid inccident(s) does the forum think that in the interests of fairness and balance we should have a Spanish ATC secrets thread ?
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Fell free to join: http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/520...h-atc-why.html