Below the GS at SFO again
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bubbers44 wrote:
You would be off the racist list, if you threw some of your righteous indignation at the American pilot that face-planted a 737 in LGA in daylight.
More than 1 of you have said, in one breath, that Asian pilots are awful due to the rote learning education system, but except the Japanese pilots; they are quite good. The Japanese education system is just as rote learning as any country you pick in the Far East. So this rote learning education system is either a cause or it isn't.
After the Asiana crash into our rocks on approach to 28L at SFO I was called a racist saying Asian airlines should be able to do visual approaches as well as American pilots or be banned until they can into US airports. Now it happened again. If we have another Asian wide body crash at SFO on 28L does that take me off the racist list? Probably not but please do not fly to our airports until you can do a simple visual looking out the window approach. We all can. Why can't you?
More than 1 of you have said, in one breath, that Asian pilots are awful due to the rote learning education system, but except the Japanese pilots; they are quite good. The Japanese education system is just as rote learning as any country you pick in the Far East. So this rote learning education system is either a cause or it isn't.
Last edited by epc; 28th Jul 2013 at 08:52.
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Quit making excuses for these pilots, “no ILS glide path, cross San Mateo Bridge at xxxx, set up a GNSS approach” blah, blah, blah. Any pilot should be able to perform a visual approach, period. There are two, three, or four pilots up in the front monitoring the approach and any of them can easily say “too low, airspeed, right of course, sink rate, go-around, my controls,” before the situation is out of control.
God forbid, if ATC was giving you a “slam dunk approach” you could always say “unable”.
At least one of the three pilots of the 214 crash observed unstable approach criteria (which are spelled out clearly in their operating manuals), they just wouldn’t speak up or act in a timely manner. I am sure at least one of the pilots in this latest incident also observed unstable approach criteria and didn’t speak up soon enough.
A little extra time in the sim doing visuals and practicing unstable approach calls would go a long way to fixing these problems. We have already seen the results of not addressing the problem.
God forbid, if ATC was giving you a “slam dunk approach” you could always say “unable”.
At least one of the three pilots of the 214 crash observed unstable approach criteria (which are spelled out clearly in their operating manuals), they just wouldn’t speak up or act in a timely manner. I am sure at least one of the pilots in this latest incident also observed unstable approach criteria and didn’t speak up soon enough.
A little extra time in the sim doing visuals and practicing unstable approach calls would go a long way to fixing these problems. We have already seen the results of not addressing the problem.
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No it doesn't. The bridge is 5nm or so from the 28 thresholds. That's 1650ft for 3°, 1500ft for 3 to one, not 1900. Worse, because it's way above the 3 times profile, the crew would probably be holding the nose up to make the "recommendation", making the subsequent dive for the dirt/water even more challenging. Hardly desirable for those who are not good at visual approaches anyway.
Not good at visual approaches? You are fired.
Holding the nose up to make the recommendation?
I smell an MS Sim jockey here...
Last edited by bugg smasher; 28th Jul 2013 at 12:49.
I think it is a little disingenuous to compare the Asiana accident at SFO to the Southwest 737 accident at LaGuardia.
If Asian had just thumped it in on the nosewheel after a relatively normal approach I don't think we'd be having the sort of discussion we are having here.
There is a big difference between getting circa 20-30 kts below minimum speed on the approach together with a stall warning having (apparently) missed traditional approach gates compared to a mishandled flare (not saying this is good of course!).
It's not so much the actual accidents but the reasons why each of them happens.
If Asian had just thumped it in on the nosewheel after a relatively normal approach I don't think we'd be having the sort of discussion we are having here.
There is a big difference between getting circa 20-30 kts below minimum speed on the approach together with a stall warning having (apparently) missed traditional approach gates compared to a mishandled flare (not saying this is good of course!).
It's not so much the actual accidents but the reasons why each of them happens.
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DEJA VU??!!
The interesting part is WHY…
AF447 THY@AMS LIONAIR ASIANA@SFO & now EVA@SFO.
Unashamedly cut and pasted from posting #2375 on the Asiana thred.
IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE LISTENING TO DOG-TIRED AVIATION PROFESSIONALS?
Reams of speculation about autopilots, autothrottles, PFDs, speed tapes, AoA probes, deck angles, alpha-floor protections and all the other widgets and bells and whistles which help to make the machine safer have filled these pages.
Then the discussion of full automatics versus part automatics versus clickety click "I have control" but somehow the pilot(s) involved manage to foul up bigtime.
My copy of the UKs CHIRP still regularly features flight crews, cabin crews and engineers and ATC operators complaining about the adverse effects of the modern thrusting dynamic push for productivity and stretching and sweating the assets.
I then have to watch the arrival of the EASA FTLs which are even more corporate-friendly than their predecessors whilst having observed the abuse of CAP371 by numerous UK airlines. Not a single pilot apparently on the bunch of Eurocrat
s who've dreamt up this recipe for disaster.
How wonderful it would be to have the contributory cause of these apparently inexplicable accidents shouted from the rooftops as F A T I G U E.
But that will never happen, will it? The elephant in the room will be shuffled out to the yard and those higher in the food chain responsible for such a supervisory regime will retire and sleep easy without the prospect of a corporate manslaughter charge, prison sentence and the confiscation of all their assets disturbing their corporate psychotic sleep!
So carry on discussing trivia like HOW to perform an iexplicable CFIT but on no account give these unfortunate crews the excuse of dog-tiredness where ALL of us have been during our careers.
AF447 THY@AMS LIONAIR ASIANA@SFO & now EVA@SFO.
Unashamedly cut and pasted from posting #2375 on the Asiana thred.
IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE LISTENING TO DOG-TIRED AVIATION PROFESSIONALS?
Reams of speculation about autopilots, autothrottles, PFDs, speed tapes, AoA probes, deck angles, alpha-floor protections and all the other widgets and bells and whistles which help to make the machine safer have filled these pages.
Then the discussion of full automatics versus part automatics versus clickety click "I have control" but somehow the pilot(s) involved manage to foul up bigtime.
My copy of the UKs CHIRP still regularly features flight crews, cabin crews and engineers and ATC operators complaining about the adverse effects of the modern thrusting dynamic push for productivity and stretching and sweating the assets.
I then have to watch the arrival of the EASA FTLs which are even more corporate-friendly than their predecessors whilst having observed the abuse of CAP371 by numerous UK airlines. Not a single pilot apparently on the bunch of Eurocrat
s who've dreamt up this recipe for disaster.How wonderful it would be to have the contributory cause of these apparently inexplicable accidents shouted from the rooftops as F A T I G U E.
But that will never happen, will it? The elephant in the room will be shuffled out to the yard and those higher in the food chain responsible for such a supervisory regime will retire and sleep easy without the prospect of a corporate manslaughter charge, prison sentence and the confiscation of all their assets disturbing their corporate psychotic sleep!
So carry on discussing trivia like HOW to perform an iexplicable CFIT but on no account give these unfortunate crews the excuse of dog-tiredness where ALL of us have been during our careers.
Here Here, Spotty Dog well said that man In my view they all need to get back to basic Flying. And also really good monitoring Like we used to Operate In DA & we had our fair share Prangs But that all changed when Dick Spurrell wrote that wonderfull Manual
:
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Last edited by t211; 28th Jul 2013 at 21:01.
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Will agree wholeheartedly Barking, here in our neck o' the woods, the brand new FAR117 rules take effect in January to address such issues, but, as is the corporate game, lots of pencil sharpening in progress to devise crafty ways around that silly, and ultimately very expensive, bottom-line compromising need for proper crew rest.
That is what happens when you sell tickets from New York to San Francisco for $99. Six hour sector, gotta recoup those costs somewhere.
Still some very gentle folk flying our cabins, but all manner of cringingly entitled 99-dollar yobbos aboard as well to make our collective lives a living, flying hell.
Cap doffed, to the all the cabin crews out there, who willingly put up with this insanity on a daily basis. Anyone wanna hear about last week?
That is what happens when you sell tickets from New York to San Francisco for $99. Six hour sector, gotta recoup those costs somewhere.
Still some very gentle folk flying our cabins, but all manner of cringingly entitled 99-dollar yobbos aboard as well to make our collective lives a living, flying hell.
Cap doffed, to the all the cabin crews out there, who willingly put up with this insanity on a daily basis. Anyone wanna hear about last week?
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[Not a pilot:] Looks as if the FAA has a quick fix for this problem:
Foreign airlines urged to use GPS for SFO landings - SFGate
Foreign airlines urged to use GPS for SFO landings - SFGate
Last edited by fotoguzzi; 29th Jul 2013 at 04:10.
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Whatsalizard....yahhh I rather fly with the highly experienced ones...that forget to set flaps for take-off, land at wrong....airports, runways, taxiways, state, country,.....seems nobody is perfect are they, while I find the 777 accident very disturbing, it happens to people of all colours, cultures, countries...incapacity or neglect is an equal opportunity employer..
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[Not a pilot:] Looks as if the FAA has a quick fix for this problem:
Foreign airlines urged to use GPS for SFO landings - SFGate
Foreign airlines urged to use GPS for SFO landings - SFGate
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Approaches are not generally assigned via NOTAM.
I'm guessing the Arrival controllers are clearing a/c for RNAV approaches instead of visuals. Especially if the flights originate from certain overseas destinations.
What's the saying again? "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, maybe we better not try hand-flying anymore?!"
I'm guessing the Arrival controllers are clearing a/c for RNAV approaches instead of visuals. Especially if the flights originate from certain overseas destinations.
What's the saying again? "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, maybe we better not try hand-flying anymore?!"
Last edited by nolimitholdem; 29th Jul 2013 at 10:28.
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Whatsalizard....yahhh I rather fly with the highly experienced ones...that forget to set flaps for take-off, land at wrong....airports, runways, taxiways, state, country,.....seems nobody is perfect are they, while I find the 777 accident very disturbing, it happens to people of all colours, cultures, countries...incapacity or neglect is an equal opportunity employer..
Ex:
Asiana 'go-around' rate at SFO raises concern - San Francisco Chronicle
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With regard to Asiana 'go-around' rate at SFO raises concern - San Francisco Chronicle
I find this disturbing on a couple of levels.
1) I believe the Airports Director has jurisdiction over how an aircraft may be operated and parked on his airfield, after they've arrived. I'm not sure if he has the authority to insist that other airlines supply crews.
2) Senator Feinstein has much to answer for in the NSA mess, she should probably keep her nose out of aviation.
3) An international outfit I am reasonably familiar with used to do about 1 G/A per month, with one flight per day into SFO, and at least half of them were due to TCAS RAs due to spacing.
4) I wonder if Asiana has a POI assigned by the FAA, and what is he doing these days? All the boxes ticked on his once-per-month visits?
I find this disturbing on a couple of levels.
1) I believe the Airports Director has jurisdiction over how an aircraft may be operated and parked on his airfield, after they've arrived. I'm not sure if he has the authority to insist that other airlines supply crews.
2) Senator Feinstein has much to answer for in the NSA mess, she should probably keep her nose out of aviation.
3) An international outfit I am reasonably familiar with used to do about 1 G/A per month, with one flight per day into SFO, and at least half of them were due to TCAS RAs due to spacing.
4) I wonder if Asiana has a POI assigned by the FAA, and what is he doing these days? All the boxes ticked on his once-per-month visits?
Ironbutt,
I said nothing about forgiving those mistakes by US airline pilots nor them striving for excellence in efforts in the future in avoiding seemingly simple mistakes in airmanship and command of the aircraft.
I am equal opportunity in expecting a high standard of pilots from any nationality, race, creed, culture or religion or belief. I have also served in the 3 seats of analog and glass cockpits up to the B777. I am also well educated on the problems of maintaining currency as a long haul relief pilot on the 777.
I said nothing about forgiving those mistakes by US airline pilots nor them striving for excellence in efforts in the future in avoiding seemingly simple mistakes in airmanship and command of the aircraft.
I am equal opportunity in expecting a high standard of pilots from any nationality, race, creed, culture or religion or belief. I have also served in the 3 seats of analog and glass cockpits up to the B777. I am also well educated on the problems of maintaining currency as a long haul relief pilot on the 777.