Southwest KLGA gear collapse.
Moral?
I was simply responding to your statement about the facts being incorrect in another post.
Whether I feel it is wrong or immoral is not relevant to your statement.
You posted, " Congratulations - you managed to get everything wrong. Including the name of the airline and the F.O.s origin."
If you know this is incorrect and have proof (references), then post them.
Otherwise, your post has no more meaning in truth than the other one.
Regards.
Whether I feel it is wrong or immoral is not relevant to your statement.
You posted, " Congratulations - you managed to get everything wrong. Including the name of the airline and the F.O.s origin."
If you know this is incorrect and have proof (references), then post them.
Otherwise, your post has no more meaning in truth than the other one.
Regards.
Old Boeing Driver
Moral?
I was simply responding to your statement about the facts being incorrect in another post.
Whether I feel it is wrong or immoral is not relevant to your statement.
You posted, " Congratulations - you managed to get everything wrong. Including the name of the airline and the F.O.s origin."
If you know this is incorrect and have proof (references), then post them.
Otherwise, your post has no more meaning in truth than the other one.
Regards.
Moral?
I was simply responding to your statement about the facts being incorrect in another post.
Whether I feel it is wrong or immoral is not relevant to your statement.
You posted, " Congratulations - you managed to get everything wrong. Including the name of the airline and the F.O.s origin."
If you know this is incorrect and have proof (references), then post them.
Otherwise, your post has no more meaning in truth than the other one.
Regards.
Let me get this straight:
1. You're too lazy to even google the name of the airline in order to see if its correct,
2. You want me to publish that airlines seniority list, to prove to you that the pilots name was never on it, and
3. You want me to reference internal company information, to prove to you, that one of your fellow retirees gossip is incorrect.
Why don't you give SWA Flight Ops or SWAPA a call ? Both are available publicly with a little digging. Ask them the same questions, "with references". When they tell you to pound sand, come back with the answer. You shouldn't be surprised by my answer. You can't be that out of touch.
Apologies to everyone else for the "with references" thread drift.
Not the place
This thread is about an airline incident.
I never asked you to publish anything.
I was simple responding to your admonition of another post.
I'm not sure what you meant by not getting the airline name correct. I assume you know that SW purchased Airtran, and there may be some crossover guys. Not sure, but possible
Surely, you can't be that out of touch.
This thread is not the place and I will not be commenting further about this.
My apologies also to those looking for the facts on this incident.
Regards.
I never asked you to publish anything.
I was simple responding to your admonition of another post.
I'm not sure what you meant by not getting the airline name correct. I assume you know that SW purchased Airtran, and there may be some crossover guys. Not sure, but possible
Surely, you can't be that out of touch.
This thread is not the place and I will not be commenting further about this.
My apologies also to those looking for the facts on this incident.
Regards.
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JPJP
wait a second...I took the time to reread this little argument a few times...exactly what is wrong where?
oldboeingdriver asked some questions about what your post to 185
if the first officer was inherited from the airtran purchase, that is interesting to know...it actually may throw some light on training process, and retraining.
if he is not from airtran, just saying: the fo is NOT a former air tran pilot would have been enough.
and yes we would all like to know what happened...if its a plane problem we would all like to know.
if someone screwed up, we would like to know too.
(DOES anyone recall a crash where an MD80 series operated by DELTA landed about an inch short of the threshold of runway 13 at LGA? cream;ed the main gear off...turned out the pilot had contact lenses that offered both far and near visions...and OOPS.)
Wondering if there was a vision problem somewhere.
but jpjp...I think you are way hot under the collar without a good reason to be.
wait a second...I took the time to reread this little argument a few times...exactly what is wrong where?
oldboeingdriver asked some questions about what your post to 185
if the first officer was inherited from the airtran purchase, that is interesting to know...it actually may throw some light on training process, and retraining.
if he is not from airtran, just saying: the fo is NOT a former air tran pilot would have been enough.
and yes we would all like to know what happened...if its a plane problem we would all like to know.
if someone screwed up, we would like to know too.
(DOES anyone recall a crash where an MD80 series operated by DELTA landed about an inch short of the threshold of runway 13 at LGA? cream;ed the main gear off...turned out the pilot had contact lenses that offered both far and near visions...and OOPS.)
Wondering if there was a vision problem somewhere.
but jpjp...I think you are way hot under the collar without a good reason to be.
wait a second...I took the time to reread this little argument a few times...exactly what is wrong where?
oldboeingdriver asked some questions about what your post to 185
if the first officer was inherited from the airtran purchase, that is interesting to know...it actually may throw some light on training process, and retraining.
if he is not from airtran, just saying: the fo is NOT a former air tran pilot would have been enough.
and yes we would all like to know what happened...if its a plane problem we would all like to know.
if someone screwed up, we would like to know too.
(DOES anyone recall a crash where an MD80 series operated by DELTA landed about an inch short of the threshold of runway 13 at LGA? cream;ed the main gear off...turned out the pilot had contact lenses that offered both far and near visions...and OOPS.)
Wondering if there was a vision problem somewhere.
but jpjp...I think you are way hot under the collar without a good reason to be.
oldboeingdriver asked some questions about what your post to 185
if the first officer was inherited from the airtran purchase, that is interesting to know...it actually may throw some light on training process, and retraining.
if he is not from airtran, just saying: the fo is NOT a former air tran pilot would have been enough.
and yes we would all like to know what happened...if its a plane problem we would all like to know.
if someone screwed up, we would like to know too.
(DOES anyone recall a crash where an MD80 series operated by DELTA landed about an inch short of the threshold of runway 13 at LGA? cream;ed the main gear off...turned out the pilot had contact lenses that offered both far and near visions...and OOPS.)
Wondering if there was a vision problem somewhere.
but jpjp...I think you are way hot under the collar without a good reason to be.
Happy to answer that - I thought I made it clear originally. If I didn't make it clear, then it's my fault. The F.O. was not a former AirTran pilot. He was a SWA hire. Trained and hired directly through the SWA hiring process. As was the Captain. The rumor that the FO was an AirTran transition began within SWA.
Regarding your comment on training - All of the AirTran pilots transitioning to SWA have more experience than the incident F.O. The incident Captain is less experienced than half of the entire AirTran pilot group that is transitioning to a SWA FO seat. Those AirTran pilots are transitioning from the Captain seat of the 73NG or the 717. They've been flying into LaGuardia constantly for over a decade. The AirTran training program is excellent. The FOQA numbers show an interesting comparison with regard to stabilized approaches. The AirTran pilots transitioning are being given a full course, and from all reports find the training environment to be excellent.
Since the fate of the two pilots in question was not known at the time of the original post, I found the gleeful supposition irritating. I found the requirement for references ridiculous.
I will add this; I think that the FO was in a very difficult position. At a time when he was relatively new to civilian flying. The Human Factors analysis will be interesting.
Last edited by JPJP; 31st Aug 2013 at 01:15.
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JPJP:
Well, this is a rumor network, and that is what I heard. If wrong, it won't be the first time on this forum that something that was rumored is wrong. Set me straight with the facts/rumors as you know them.
I have been told more about the captain and her record with the company, but I have held those back for obvious reasons.
PS "Gleeful." Really? Gleeful never crossed my mind.
Well, this is a rumor network, and that is what I heard. If wrong, it won't be the first time on this forum that something that was rumored is wrong. Set me straight with the facts/rumors as you know them.
I have been told more about the captain and her record with the company, but I have held those back for obvious reasons.
PS "Gleeful." Really? Gleeful never crossed my mind.
Last edited by Desert185; 31st Aug 2013 at 02:11.
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jpjp
in internet stuff it is too easy to read things into comments. I've seen it many times
I've not seen anything "GLEEFUL"
oh, I've been around long enough to know that copilots/fo's are always in a difficult situation.
I"VE BEEN IN MANY DIFFICULT SITUATIONS.
Thinking the airtran purchase might have been a clue is similar to many other accidents. Don't get too upset, it has happened in many merger situations.
new to civilian flying? sounds like an ex fighter pilot , single seat...and it is hard to deal with new things.
sadly, I have an opinion as to what happened and it is not a pretty one for the captain.
I mentioned the delta crash at LGA in which the captain was using monovision contact lenses which were not the right kind to fly with.
But jpjp, no one deserved jumping on like you have done.
and no one is pointing fingers at airtran...I like em because they flew DC9's in another form as ValueJet.
Every airline has problems...lets just try to figure this one out and learn from it.
But like I've said...LGA is not a bad airport compared to others in the USA.
What do you think happened...if it is not compromising your situation.
in internet stuff it is too easy to read things into comments. I've seen it many times
I've not seen anything "GLEEFUL"
oh, I've been around long enough to know that copilots/fo's are always in a difficult situation.
I"VE BEEN IN MANY DIFFICULT SITUATIONS.
Thinking the airtran purchase might have been a clue is similar to many other accidents. Don't get too upset, it has happened in many merger situations.
new to civilian flying? sounds like an ex fighter pilot , single seat...and it is hard to deal with new things.
sadly, I have an opinion as to what happened and it is not a pretty one for the captain.
I mentioned the delta crash at LGA in which the captain was using monovision contact lenses which were not the right kind to fly with.
But jpjp, no one deserved jumping on like you have done.
and no one is pointing fingers at airtran...I like em because they flew DC9's in another form as ValueJet.
Every airline has problems...lets just try to figure this one out and learn from it.
But like I've said...LGA is not a bad airport compared to others in the USA.
What do you think happened...if it is not compromising your situation.
JPJP:
Well, this is a rumor network, and that is what I heard. If wrong, it won't be the first time on this forum that something that was rumored is wrong. Set me straight with the facts/rumors as you know them.
I have been told more about the captain and her record with the company, but I have held those back for obvious reasons.
PS "Gleeful." Really? Gleeful never crossed my mind.
Well, this is a rumor network, and that is what I heard. If wrong, it won't be the first time on this forum that something that was rumored is wrong. Set me straight with the facts/rumors as you know them.
I have been told more about the captain and her record with the company, but I have held those back for obvious reasons.
PS "Gleeful." Really? Gleeful never crossed my mind.
Understood.
There's not much information out there, and it's probably a good thing. Until the company involved provides a 'lessons learned' for its crews, or the NTSB provides a report or briefing.
I agree. I think omitting any information or conjecture about the Captains role is probably a wise move.
Cheers.
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When First Officers bid for their monthly schedules they can enter three seniority numbers they do not wish to be paired with. Should the bid result in being paired with one of the three numbers it skips that schedule and moves to the next choice.
The seniority numbers of captains First Officers wish to avoid are not published by the company.
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Bonger:
Sounds like a list to me, published or otherwise.
Conjecture:
Having been an airline management-type (with a seniority number) in the past, the company is well aware of her status among the other crewmembers. If she was indeed fired, that record, along with this LGA accident being the final straw, was enough to justify termination of a female captain. Believe me, the company doesn't want a pain-in-the-a$$ crewmember around anymore than the majority of FO's, particularly a company with the operating philosophy that exists within Southwest.
Now, the union has to decide how it will proceed in "protecting" one of it's members.
End of conjecture.
Be interesting to hear the crew interaction during the final moments of the flight.
There is no list. They have an avoidance bidding system.
When First Officers bid for their monthly schedules they can enter three seniority numbers they do not wish to be paired with. Should the bid result in being paired with one of the three numbers it skips that schedule and moves to the next choice.
The seniority numbers of captains First Officers wish to avoid are not published by the company.
When First Officers bid for their monthly schedules they can enter three seniority numbers they do not wish to be paired with. Should the bid result in being paired with one of the three numbers it skips that schedule and moves to the next choice.
The seniority numbers of captains First Officers wish to avoid are not published by the company.
Conjecture:
Having been an airline management-type (with a seniority number) in the past, the company is well aware of her status among the other crewmembers. If she was indeed fired, that record, along with this LGA accident being the final straw, was enough to justify termination of a female captain. Believe me, the company doesn't want a pain-in-the-a$$ crewmember around anymore than the majority of FO's, particularly a company with the operating philosophy that exists within Southwest.
Now, the union has to decide how it will proceed in "protecting" one of it's members.
End of conjecture.
Be interesting to hear the crew interaction during the final moments of the flight.
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We had a similar system to avoid being paired with certain captains. One was a chain smoker and I am alergic to cigarette smoke so rather than coughing into the mike and trying to deflect it with my meager vents I was able to perform my duties in a much safer manner with another captain. He was a nice guy, just liked to smoke so back then you could fix it.
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I also flew with pilots who pushed my limits so didn't have to fly with them either. Letting copilots allow them to fly so they are comfortable is good. Give them three do not fly with captains and they will eliminate the pairing of two pilots not working well together. It is much safer.
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NO-FLY ZONE OF CAPTAINS?
So this airline, and others of whom I know not, has an "avoidance list" so's F/Os can evade operating with those grumpy old pharts who make their lives a misery??
And this state of affairs is tolerated by the management?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the (mistaken) impression that CRM courses and simulator/line check team skills assessments were the first way of ironing out such behaviour by captains towards F/Os?
I recall being informed by a reliable source that the F/Os in a certain major UK airline, when looking at the roster to discover who would be performing their next LPC/OPC, in the runup to and including command assessment details, were calling in sick when they discovered their future lay in the hands of such ogres from the training department!
Sad that the F/Os felt the need for such an action, but even sadder for the flight management who either noticed such a pattern (but avoided bouncing the offending "trainers" off the wall with appropriate sanctions), or even worse, were unaware of such practices and therefore had their eyes off the ball.
I trust those captains on such an avoid-list, and those trainers whom nobody trusts to perform an objective assessment, sleep easy in their beds knowing in how low professional esteem they are held!
Whilst the responsibilities of command don't include nor should embrace a popularity contest, I find it baffling and disappointing but alas not surprising that such a situation of lack of confidence in objective assessments/straightforward line experiences exists to this day, and in other less well equipped/staffed airlines.
And this state of affairs is tolerated by the management?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the (mistaken) impression that CRM courses and simulator/line check team skills assessments were the first way of ironing out such behaviour by captains towards F/Os?
I recall being informed by a reliable source that the F/Os in a certain major UK airline, when looking at the roster to discover who would be performing their next LPC/OPC, in the runup to and including command assessment details, were calling in sick when they discovered their future lay in the hands of such ogres from the training department!
Sad that the F/Os felt the need for such an action, but even sadder for the flight management who either noticed such a pattern (but avoided bouncing the offending "trainers" off the wall with appropriate sanctions), or even worse, were unaware of such practices and therefore had their eyes off the ball.
I trust those captains on such an avoid-list, and those trainers whom nobody trusts to perform an objective assessment, sleep easy in their beds knowing in how low professional esteem they are held!
Whilst the responsibilities of command don't include nor should embrace a popularity contest, I find it baffling and disappointing but alas not surprising that such a situation of lack of confidence in objective assessments/straightforward line experiences exists to this day, and in other less well equipped/staffed airlines.
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ITS NOT JUST GRUMPY OLD PHARTS...I've had a list (when I was an f/o) and a couple of the captains were younger than me...they just were not very good at the task of creating the proper CRM environment.
it is not age.
it is mutual respect
it is watching out for the other guy and remind him (or her) of a trap or mistake before it gets out of hand.
it is respect for the ''book''.
And the big thing is this...it is only seniority that puts one in the right seat or the left seat.
I remember one outfit that I was junior at...and wasn't it fun when I left for another outfit and the first outfit went bust. And the senior guys were junior to me.
it is not age.
it is mutual respect
it is watching out for the other guy and remind him (or her) of a trap or mistake before it gets out of hand.
it is respect for the ''book''.
And the big thing is this...it is only seniority that puts one in the right seat or the left seat.
I remember one outfit that I was junior at...and wasn't it fun when I left for another outfit and the first outfit went bust. And the senior guys were junior to me.
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Sometimes it's thing that are only peripherally related to operating the aircraft. A previous poster mentioned a chain-smoking captain. Now that particular issue has now been resolved by regulation, but prior to that happening, if you find breathing smoke continuously on the flight really unpleasant, and the other guy is not willing to subordinate his (legal) preferences to yours, what are you gonna do. Yeah, smoking isn't an issue any more in most countries, but I'm sure if you put your mind to it you could imagine a number of ways in which perfectly competent pilots could also be rather unpleasant to be cooped up with on a flight deck for a week long rotation.