Standard of RT in USA
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My submission has been pre-empted by the excellent post of Dibo. Just about sums it up.
I can only supplement by stressing that the use of Aviation English is paramount at airports with multiple nationalities on both ends of the mic. I work at a busy Asian hub and, while we are certainly not perfect, we require standard phraseologies at all times.
While controllers and pilots are supposedly operational Level 4 or above, standards vary dramatically.
I can only supplement by stressing that the use of Aviation English is paramount at airports with multiple nationalities on both ends of the mic. I work at a busy Asian hub and, while we are certainly not perfect, we require standard phraseologies at all times.
While controllers and pilots are supposedly operational Level 4 or above, standards vary dramatically.
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To Hell Man, (and others who don't get the point of the thread),
This thread has NOTHING to do with who handles the most traffic, or who has the best safety record, or indeed who are the World's best Air Traffic Controllers! If you want to argue about these semantics, please start a separate thread and fight among yourselves until you are blue in the face, but please do not divert the thread away from its premise.
The ONLY point of the thread was to question why the vast majority of US operators and ATC operatives feel the need to make use of a completely different code of communicating when using RT than the rest of the World, and one that flies in the face of the Standards and Recommended Practices agreed by all ICAO Member States, including themselves.
If by now you don't understand the concept of ICAO, what its purpose is, who the members are, and how international agreements are decided upon, made and implemented, please read no further as you will never get the point I am trying to make here.
The unavoidable fact that many seem to miss here is that a committee including representatives of the US decided that standardization would be in the best interests of safety and the industry as a whole. They concluded that specific phraseology should be defined and used to direct traffic, and in doing so they created what are in effect SOPS for ATC and pilots. The sole purpose of standardizing the industry in this respect was to minimize the possibility of misunderstandings that could potentially lead to unsafe conflicts. Over time the SARPS have been amended - many of you will recall that we used to say "ready for take off" instead of today's "ready for departure," and in time I'm sure there will be more amendments incorporated as we learn from experiences (and phraseology) that lead to confusion. The point I am trying to make here is simple; ALL users of USA airspace need to understand what they and others are being instructed to do, just as US operators need to when flying outside of what may be their comfort zone.
If some of you still don't get it, consider how those of you in the US would feel if we in Europe started "tweaking" the way we light our airports. How about some of us choosing to use green centre line light bulbs if we run out of white ones, or just for the heck of it choose to space out the lights at different intervals, just because we can't be bothered to stick to the international agreements, or don't have the time during busy periods? Would you be confused, would it likely lead to a degradation of safety? Get my point? Well do you, Hell Man? So what possible argument do you have for discarding the internationally agreed SARPS in respect of ATC comms?
The argument put forward by some is just plain stupid, especially when talking about busy US hubs. Talking slang to a Chinese, Japanese or even Pikanese pilot is more likely to result in a request to "say again prease," if indeed its possible to get a word back in. Use of the correct phraseology in such cases will not only reduce misunderstandings, it will also expedite the traffic flow.
As for isolated instances of traffic conflicts, misheard comms, or simple cock ups, they serve no useful purpose in this thread. Pilots and controllers of all nations screw up from time to time. As the starter of the thread I would rather explore how we can all work together and make best use of the agreed standards, or, if some are to be believed, should we simply all go our own way and chat to each other in any way shape, form or language?
Standardizing ATC comms cannot be argued against, and its my opinion that the US needs to fall into line and follow the rules in the interests of IMPROVING on what is already their excellent safety record!
This thread has NOTHING to do with who handles the most traffic, or who has the best safety record, or indeed who are the World's best Air Traffic Controllers! If you want to argue about these semantics, please start a separate thread and fight among yourselves until you are blue in the face, but please do not divert the thread away from its premise.
The ONLY point of the thread was to question why the vast majority of US operators and ATC operatives feel the need to make use of a completely different code of communicating when using RT than the rest of the World, and one that flies in the face of the Standards and Recommended Practices agreed by all ICAO Member States, including themselves.
If by now you don't understand the concept of ICAO, what its purpose is, who the members are, and how international agreements are decided upon, made and implemented, please read no further as you will never get the point I am trying to make here.
The unavoidable fact that many seem to miss here is that a committee including representatives of the US decided that standardization would be in the best interests of safety and the industry as a whole. They concluded that specific phraseology should be defined and used to direct traffic, and in doing so they created what are in effect SOPS for ATC and pilots. The sole purpose of standardizing the industry in this respect was to minimize the possibility of misunderstandings that could potentially lead to unsafe conflicts. Over time the SARPS have been amended - many of you will recall that we used to say "ready for take off" instead of today's "ready for departure," and in time I'm sure there will be more amendments incorporated as we learn from experiences (and phraseology) that lead to confusion. The point I am trying to make here is simple; ALL users of USA airspace need to understand what they and others are being instructed to do, just as US operators need to when flying outside of what may be their comfort zone.
If some of you still don't get it, consider how those of you in the US would feel if we in Europe started "tweaking" the way we light our airports. How about some of us choosing to use green centre line light bulbs if we run out of white ones, or just for the heck of it choose to space out the lights at different intervals, just because we can't be bothered to stick to the international agreements, or don't have the time during busy periods? Would you be confused, would it likely lead to a degradation of safety? Get my point? Well do you, Hell Man? So what possible argument do you have for discarding the internationally agreed SARPS in respect of ATC comms?
The argument put forward by some is just plain stupid, especially when talking about busy US hubs. Talking slang to a Chinese, Japanese or even Pikanese pilot is more likely to result in a request to "say again prease," if indeed its possible to get a word back in. Use of the correct phraseology in such cases will not only reduce misunderstandings, it will also expedite the traffic flow.
As for isolated instances of traffic conflicts, misheard comms, or simple cock ups, they serve no useful purpose in this thread. Pilots and controllers of all nations screw up from time to time. As the starter of the thread I would rather explore how we can all work together and make best use of the agreed standards, or, if some are to be believed, should we simply all go our own way and chat to each other in any way shape, form or language?
Standardizing ATC comms cannot be argued against, and its my opinion that the US needs to fall into line and follow the rules in the interests of IMPROVING on what is already their excellent safety record!
Last edited by deefer dog; 16th Jul 2013 at 17:45.
DIBO:
Brilliant. Someone buy this man a cigar. 
Deefer: while I appreciate your sentiments (as noted, I had many pet peeves about standard R/T and in particular read backs) in general, the flavour of your OP was both of a wind up and a bash.
That is how your OP came off.
Not sure if that is what was intended.
Note:
To repeat, as I noted to Mary in re LaGuardia, it ain't just foreigners who have difficulty with that comms environment.
I seem to recall that the OP's origin was linked directly to Asiana mishap and the wide ranging discussion in that mega-thread.
I reject the insinuation that comms at SFO was the cause of the accident, or even a causal factor: (When the NTSB report goes final, we'll see if my view matches the investigators' views).
1. Aviate
2. Navigate
3. Communicate
Priority order, right? Pri 1 seems to have been missed.
1) English based RT for all professionals (it's a good exercise for every non native English speaker). Mixing RT languages will continue to cause problems.
2) native english ATCO to non native guest: treat them as such. From the first contact you're able to judge what proficiency level you are dealing with.
3) native english speaking pilots visiting: behave like a guest - same remedy.
2) native english ATCO to non native guest: treat them as such. From the first contact you're able to judge what proficiency level you are dealing with.
3) native english speaking pilots visiting: behave like a guest - same remedy.
Deefer: while I appreciate your sentiments (as noted, I had many pet peeves about standard R/T and in particular read backs) in general, the flavour of your OP was both of a wind up and a bash.
That is how your OP came off.
Not sure if that is what was intended.
Note:
To repeat, as I noted to Mary in re LaGuardia, it ain't just foreigners who have difficulty with that comms environment.
I seem to recall that the OP's origin was linked directly to Asiana mishap and the wide ranging discussion in that mega-thread.
I reject the insinuation that comms at SFO was the cause of the accident, or even a causal factor: (When the NTSB report goes final, we'll see if my view matches the investigators' views).
1. Aviate
2. Navigate
3. Communicate
Priority order, right? Pri 1 seems to have been missed.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 16th Jul 2013 at 18:16.
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Lonewolf:
I'm sorry if you got the impression that the post was a "bash" or that I insinuated that RT comms was in any way connected to the recent mishap at SFO. I have no idea what caused that crash, and like you I will wait for the investigation to run its course.
What prompted me was the blank faces of F/O's I get fed up looking at when they are dumbfounded by instructions they are required to read back and adhere to when operating in the US. It doesn't happen in any of the other continents we fly through or into, (all of them except Australia which I have yet to visit), or any of the 50 odd DIFFERENT countries (and languages) that make up Europe.
I appreciate that to some extent at least you understand the problem. Please appreciate that I have a genuine reason for asking that you guys play according to the operating standards that, with very few exceptions, the rest of the world generally follow.
I have a feeling that I'm banging my head against a brick wall here; whichever way you slice it you know you guys don't comply in the main, and rather than try to defend the indefensible its perhaps easier to look at the post as a "bashing."
Consider it this way. As a global leaders in aviation, and as proud holders of an enviable safety record, do you not at least agree that the US should up its game in this respect, and at least try to adopt the principles and standards that you helped to design, and agreed to?
I know it won't happen overnight, but baby steps might help.
I'm sorry if you got the impression that the post was a "bash" or that I insinuated that RT comms was in any way connected to the recent mishap at SFO. I have no idea what caused that crash, and like you I will wait for the investigation to run its course.
What prompted me was the blank faces of F/O's I get fed up looking at when they are dumbfounded by instructions they are required to read back and adhere to when operating in the US. It doesn't happen in any of the other continents we fly through or into, (all of them except Australia which I have yet to visit), or any of the 50 odd DIFFERENT countries (and languages) that make up Europe.
I appreciate that to some extent at least you understand the problem. Please appreciate that I have a genuine reason for asking that you guys play according to the operating standards that, with very few exceptions, the rest of the world generally follow.
I have a feeling that I'm banging my head against a brick wall here; whichever way you slice it you know you guys don't comply in the main, and rather than try to defend the indefensible its perhaps easier to look at the post as a "bashing."
Consider it this way. As a global leaders in aviation, and as proud holders of an enviable safety record, do you not at least agree that the US should up its game in this respect, and at least try to adopt the principles and standards that you helped to design, and agreed to?
I know it won't happen overnight, but baby steps might help.
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One can listen (live) to all ATC at JFK here. Just been listening to Approach for the past 10 mins while reading this thread - what I can say is that they sound very professional to me.
Well done USA!
Well done USA!
Deefer and DIBO, I agree with you 100%
ATC Guys/Gals in the USA: We don't think you are more clever or more skilled just because you speak fast. Quite the opposite in fact - it makes me think you are nervous and not fully in control of the situation.
I have had to ask for complete repeats; 'slowly' or "words twice" on several occasions at USA airports over the years.
Speaking fast does not impress anyone and simply results in wasted time because you have to repeat everything you just said, and also results in a loss of safety.
I am not being partisan when I say the the UK controllers do it just right - calm, measured and precise.
Slow down ! - Less is more.
ATC Guys/Gals in the USA: We don't think you are more clever or more skilled just because you speak fast. Quite the opposite in fact - it makes me think you are nervous and not fully in control of the situation.
I have had to ask for complete repeats; 'slowly' or "words twice" on several occasions at USA airports over the years.
Speaking fast does not impress anyone and simply results in wasted time because you have to repeat everything you just said, and also results in a loss of safety.
I am not being partisan when I say the the UK controllers do it just right - calm, measured and precise.
Slow down ! - Less is more.
Last edited by Uplinker; 16th Jul 2013 at 20:38.
I have a feeling that I'm banging my head against a brick wall here; whichever way you slice it you know you guys don't comply in the main, and rather than try to defend the indefensible its perhaps easier to look at the post as a "bashing."
I don't think you can support that (bolded ) statement, and it is probably the matter of "generalization" that made it look more like a bash than perhaps you intended.
Since I had to teach R/T and standardization, I am as much in your camp as a matter of principle as anyone, but I also learned over the years that some minor variation (though not in the terminal area) is nothing to get all up in arms over.
From where I sit, the terminal area -- departures and arrivals -- are, due to their density of air traffic and comms traffic, the places where the benefits of clear, concise, brief, and standard comms are the greatest.
Getting sloppy in the radio in Class A airspace is, for my money, no way to perform in the air.
I wonder if anyone beyond those in this circular argument really give a F what any of us care? I don't think so. I haven't seen any change to US controllers or pilots in the few days since this thread started.
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of course you don't give a fcuk, that's the the problem isn't it?
"a good tradesman measures twice, and cuts only once." if your ATC slang was eliminated, and you spoke like everyone else does your guys wouldn't need to keep "sayin" it again.
"outta 2 point seven for one nine oh," (what exactly does that mean?) (don't answer, its a rhetorical question)
"direct to the keys" (how the fcuk is a foreign crew supposed to know where they are, or what the ident is?)
"ground point 9" (elimination of the two vital words, namely "frequency" and decimal - used to give crews at least a clue!)
"thirty point one" (is it an altimeter setting or a frequency?) (fcuk it, not important so let's all just guess)
"right two hundred" (is that "okay heading 200 degrees", or "okay descend to FL 200", or maybe 200 knots?)
call me antagonistic if you like, but in this respect you guys are more like john wayne cowboys than safety conscious professionals.
USA: guilty as charged m'lud! your ATC is atrocious, abysmal and amateurish
and you should be ashamed of it. (alliteration)
"a good tradesman measures twice, and cuts only once." if your ATC slang was eliminated, and you spoke like everyone else does your guys wouldn't need to keep "sayin" it again.
"outta 2 point seven for one nine oh," (what exactly does that mean?) (don't answer, its a rhetorical question)
"direct to the keys" (how the fcuk is a foreign crew supposed to know where they are, or what the ident is?)
"ground point 9" (elimination of the two vital words, namely "frequency" and decimal - used to give crews at least a clue!)
"thirty point one" (is it an altimeter setting or a frequency?) (fcuk it, not important so let's all just guess)
"right two hundred" (is that "okay heading 200 degrees", or "okay descend to FL 200", or maybe 200 knots?)
call me antagonistic if you like, but in this respect you guys are more like john wayne cowboys than safety conscious professionals.
USA: guilty as charged m'lud! your ATC is atrocious, abysmal and amateurish
and you should be ashamed of it. (alliteration)
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USA: guilty as charged m'lud! your ATC is atrocious, abysmal and amateurish
and you should be ashamed of it
and you should be ashamed of it
I can wait.
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Clive - many of those things on their own look horrible when taken out of context. But in real life, when R/T has been established, when all parties are well versed and comfortable and familiar, there are shortcuts that not only save time, but are safer. "Fourteen thousand feet" is much, much clearer than "one four thousand" as an example. There is virtually no way of misunderstanding that.
At my home airport the tower controllers know me, my tail number and my plane. In a busy environment they'll often say "turn left at Foxtrot, contact ground". No freq. We don't need it - I know what the freq is, they know that I know what it is, so why waste the student pilot on short finals time who's not got a clearance to land yet? Likewise, in a CTAF/AFIS environment - why the obsession after one has established contact with the tail number? Once that's been presented as you enter area, then just call out type and position. "Aerostar on base for 19L", "Aerostar on final for 19L" etc - who needs the tail number in every call? Waste of time. They're either visual with you or not - it's not like they can read your tail number anyway.
Horses for courses. There's a time for shortcuts and there's a time for doing it by the book.
I do totally agree that US R/T is way too fast, though. It's like a speed race sometimes - whoever says things the fastest, wins. I deliberately try to slow things down, without being verbose. Efficiency is key.
At my home airport the tower controllers know me, my tail number and my plane. In a busy environment they'll often say "turn left at Foxtrot, contact ground". No freq. We don't need it - I know what the freq is, they know that I know what it is, so why waste the student pilot on short finals time who's not got a clearance to land yet? Likewise, in a CTAF/AFIS environment - why the obsession after one has established contact with the tail number? Once that's been presented as you enter area, then just call out type and position. "Aerostar on base for 19L", "Aerostar on final for 19L" etc - who needs the tail number in every call? Waste of time. They're either visual with you or not - it's not like they can read your tail number anyway.
Horses for courses. There's a time for shortcuts and there's a time for doing it by the book.
I do totally agree that US R/T is way too fast, though. It's like a speed race sometimes - whoever says things the fastest, wins. I deliberately try to slow things down, without being verbose. Efficiency is key.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 16th Jul 2013 at 23:15.
Standard of RT in USA
deefer dog, DIBO & lone wolf.
Congratulations, you've said it all.
Who can question the common sense that you've spoken, & what more needs to be said on this subject ?
Congratulations, you've said it all.
Who can question the common sense that you've spoken, & what more needs to be said on this subject ?
AdamFrisch,
That's different from a busy international airport handling everything from B737s to A380s.
Recollect, many years ago, landing at well known west coast Canadian airport.
Our SOP, at the time, was pilot called for reverse which was applied and cancelled by the other guy so there's a bit of chatter on the flight deck. As we were rolling out about 90kn, ATC decided to pass us our taxi clearance at machine gun speed. I ignored the transmission until we'd cancelled reverse and then called for a repeat, remarking that it would be better to have left it until we'd finished our landing.
ATC miffed, captain embarrassed, Bas - fkit! I was right! but no one wants to lose the pissing contest
Anyway the ATCO must have been so upset that he told our next airport. When we landed there we rolled to the turnoff, exited the runway and only then did the US ATCO say "Hey, ***, OK to speak to you now?"
At my home airport the tower controllers know me, my tail number and my plane
Recollect, many years ago, landing at well known west coast Canadian airport.
Our SOP, at the time, was pilot called for reverse which was applied and cancelled by the other guy so there's a bit of chatter on the flight deck. As we were rolling out about 90kn, ATC decided to pass us our taxi clearance at machine gun speed. I ignored the transmission until we'd cancelled reverse and then called for a repeat, remarking that it would be better to have left it until we'd finished our landing.
ATC miffed, captain embarrassed, Bas - fkit! I was right! but no one wants to lose the pissing contest
Anyway the ATCO must have been so upset that he told our next airport. When we landed there we rolled to the turnoff, exited the runway and only then did the US ATCO say "Hey, ***, OK to speak to you now?"
Approved RT terminology may seem tedious and unnecessarily pedantic, but it is like that for a very good reason.
Many incidents and accidents have been caused over the years owing to misunderstandings between ATC and pilots. Use of the standard terms is safer because their meaning is defined and cannot be confused. It must also be borne in mind that transmission and reception is not perfect. Radios can be distorted or suffer interference, and cockpits can be very noisy places. As Basil suggests, the pilots are often very busy doing several things at once.
ATC need to remember that they are a SERVICE and are ASSISTING the aircraft pilots. The aeroplane comes first, not the controller wishing to clear a strip off his tray quickly.
Also we must bear in mind that pilots or ATC may not have English as their first language, which is another good reason not to speak too quickly. We had a discussion with Turkish ATC about something the other night and the person did not understand our conversational English at all, although that same ATC operator could control us in English perfectly well.
Going to Mexico a little while ago, the controller gave us a QNH of "993". We thought that odd as we were expecting inches of mercury and queried it several times. It later transpired that the controller had meant "29.93" but was using his own verbal shortcut by dropping the 2 and the decimal.
In this case the error didn't kill us, but it might easily have done.
Many incidents and accidents have been caused over the years owing to misunderstandings between ATC and pilots. Use of the standard terms is safer because their meaning is defined and cannot be confused. It must also be borne in mind that transmission and reception is not perfect. Radios can be distorted or suffer interference, and cockpits can be very noisy places. As Basil suggests, the pilots are often very busy doing several things at once.
ATC need to remember that they are a SERVICE and are ASSISTING the aircraft pilots. The aeroplane comes first, not the controller wishing to clear a strip off his tray quickly.
Also we must bear in mind that pilots or ATC may not have English as their first language, which is another good reason not to speak too quickly. We had a discussion with Turkish ATC about something the other night and the person did not understand our conversational English at all, although that same ATC operator could control us in English perfectly well.
Going to Mexico a little while ago, the controller gave us a QNH of "993". We thought that odd as we were expecting inches of mercury and queried it several times. It later transpired that the controller had meant "29.93" but was using his own verbal shortcut by dropping the 2 and the decimal.
In this case the error didn't kill us, but it might easily have done.
Last edited by Uplinker; 17th Jul 2013 at 09:18.
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Furthermore, as a pilot, I have caused no accidents and, therefore, must be the best pilot in the world - using your very own yardstick, of course. I'm sure there will be plenty of opposition to my statement, including me.
Poor defence.
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I wonder if anyone beyond those in this circular argument really give a F what any of us care? I don't think so. I haven't seen any change to US controllers or pilots in the few days since this thread started.
I also see that some others agree with me regarding the use of "fully ready". Please explain to me once more, preferably one of you pretentious Brits, the difference between being ready for departure and fully ready for departure. Or being ready for start-up and fully ready for start-up? And why are some of you seemingly not able to utilize common sense and abbreviate your verbose exchanges, or speed up a bit, at times when it clearly is necessary? Classic example: late afternoon in a busy TMA with CBs all over. People are stepping on each other in order to get permission to deviate. In comes Mr. UK with a 45-sec monotone transmission that includes not only the who, the where, and the what, but also the information received, the STAR being flown, the squawk code and the a/c type. To include the "-300". KISS FFS.
In conclusion, having flown domestically in the US for several years as a non-native English speaker, and now operating all over Europe, I definitely know which system I prefer. I'll take the land of the free any day, please. And add bacon.
Last edited by Goldenbawls; 17th Jul 2013 at 10:30.
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Okay, here comes another anecdote, just to keep the conversation friendly.
As a British Pilot, I took the RT,course, practiced the patter, and made a habit of listening on Channel 9 when flying UA as a pax. Approaching London, was delighted to hear the following exchange.
American pilot politely and properly requested Direct to Bovingdon.
Heathrow Director politely and properly declined.
American pilot asked again a few minutes later, also according to the Queen's English as she is spoken over here.
Heathrow replied "Sorry, sir, cannot approve that routing as it would take you through a danger zone."
Speedbird pilot, unidentified, chipped in: "Go for it!"
As a British Pilot, I took the RT,course, practiced the patter, and made a habit of listening on Channel 9 when flying UA as a pax. Approaching London, was delighted to hear the following exchange.
American pilot politely and properly requested Direct to Bovingdon.
Heathrow Director politely and properly declined.
American pilot asked again a few minutes later, also according to the Queen's English as she is spoken over here.
Heathrow replied "Sorry, sir, cannot approve that routing as it would take you through a danger zone."
Speedbird pilot, unidentified, chipped in: "Go for it!"
