Standard of RT in USA
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The ATC recordings were reviewed and showed that the controller used the proper phraseology when issuing the go-around instruction. The crew just flat out missed it.
Given a lack of acknowledgement, isn't that a clue to ATC that the pilot might have missed the instruction?
On HF we used a high pitched shouty voice.
Dunno if it worked.
Dunno if it worked.
Playing amateur radio, female voices are often easier to understand on a noisy link, although we're not usually using AM so the characteristics will be different to VHF airband.
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Contentious thread
Nobodys perfect.N.America ATC is the best going with Euroland a close second.Ive worked as an expat so seen all corners of the Earth.I like the variation.I dont get upset working a foreign ATCC.I dont expect them to sound the same or do things the same.I adapt.
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I operate on international flights. The Japanese and UK ATCOs are top notch. All standard ICAO. The larger American airports have improved tremendously in recent years, less 'slang and stlye'. Maybe this a result of having to "say again" repeatedly with the surge of foreing air carriers. 
Psychophysiological entity
I vaguely recall the term Overshooting being used to Go Around. When was the term Go Around cast in stone?
Not that I'm experienced in the US, but when I did my ATP, the exams were a walk in the park. The RT during the flight test was another thing altogether. I really struggled at first.
The thing is, I'd been speaking Tex-Mex for years.
Oh, edit to ask: What was that bloke's name in Shell Mex house who did the RT exam and the IR pre-test in the Link trainer? He used to launch into a falsetto voice at one stage, and make keeping a straight face a matter of command willpower. Something beginning with S ?
Not that I'm experienced in the US, but when I did my ATP, the exams were a walk in the park. The RT during the flight test was another thing altogether. I really struggled at first.
The thing is, I'd been speaking Tex-Mex for years.
Oh, edit to ask: What was that bloke's name in Shell Mex house who did the RT exam and the IR pre-test in the Link trainer? He used to launch into a falsetto voice at one stage, and make keeping a straight face a matter of command willpower. Something beginning with S ?
Last edited by Loose rivets; 14th Jul 2013 at 06:50.
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slang and stlye
Hearing some ATCer get angry at a foreign carrier with a guy who clearly has english as a second or third language as previously said is pointless. He was trained to an ICAO English proficiency what else can you expect.
Use slang and style with the locals and carriers who can/have adapted and standard ICAO with those that are expecting just that.
Last edited by SMOC; 14th Jul 2013 at 06:51.
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It's not just the US. I flew in Africa for about 18 mos, and they did all kinds of non-standard stuff, and used non-standard radio terminology.
We had an ICAO-type guy, who wanted to use standard phraseology. He was trying to correct the African controllers on the radio, and he always used standard phraseology himself. Sometimes, they couldn't understand him, and his corrections weren't very appreciated.
We had an ICAO-type guy, who wanted to use standard phraseology. He was trying to correct the African controllers on the radio, and he always used standard phraseology himself. Sometimes, they couldn't understand him, and his corrections weren't very appreciated.
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Well, nobody requested my contribution about a Birmingham controller, but here goes anyhow.
Flying my PA18 in the UK (and being accustomed to helpful ATC in the US)
I hopfully asked to be permitted to climb into the Birmingham zone, to avoid increasing cloud cover - the PA had all the necessary bells and whistles, and so did I....but although not a peep had been heard on the Birmingham frequency that early morning, the reply was curt. Negative.
So I flew on, dodging cu. Asked again. Still Negative. And he wasn't talking to anybody else at all at all. Once more, I was now facing a diversion as the cloud was spreading out. Still negative.
Whereupon a Speedbird, in Best BA Baritone, informed me "You're not in America now, you know!"
I diverted.
Flying my PA18 in the UK (and being accustomed to helpful ATC in the US)
I hopfully asked to be permitted to climb into the Birmingham zone, to avoid increasing cloud cover - the PA had all the necessary bells and whistles, and so did I....but although not a peep had been heard on the Birmingham frequency that early morning, the reply was curt. Negative.
So I flew on, dodging cu. Asked again. Still Negative. And he wasn't talking to anybody else at all at all. Once more, I was now facing a diversion as the cloud was spreading out. Still negative.
Whereupon a Speedbird, in Best BA Baritone, informed me "You're not in America now, you know!"
I diverted.
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It was probably the same BA guy who stands ever-ready to correct anyone mistakenly broadcasting on 121.5. (Is it really only one guy? He sure is vigilant.)
Man, this thread is a pedant's wet dream. Or an Australian's.
I think what annoys the Yank-bashers the most is that they don't HAVE to care what the rest of the world thinks.
Rananim puts is best. Adapt and move on. There are bigger issues out there. Like maybe learning to fly a visual approach by the time you have 10,000 hours.
Man, this thread is a pedant's wet dream. Or an Australian's.
I think what annoys the Yank-bashers the most is that they don't HAVE to care what the rest of the world thinks.
Rananim puts is best. Adapt and move on. There are bigger issues out there. Like maybe learning to fly a visual approach by the time you have 10,000 hours.
A few observations:
1. At the end of a long dark night across the pond, none of us are as sharp as we might like to be and that results in a little lax RT - our colonial cousins are not the only culprits by a long way.
2. The shambolic situation at Spanish airports continues unabated. In busy ATC environments, the use of local language reduces dramatically pilots understanding of who is where in the sky. It is not because they cannot speak English, it is because they cannot be bothered to do so or are making some political point.
3. Some GA pilots in the UK, when talking to major ATC units on those weekend afternoons are far too verbose and need to learn not only when to speak but also how much to say.
4. Why do ATIS broadcasts in the US need to be made at such a frenetic pace ? At Sanford it usually takes me about three runs to get all the information down and that is sitting on stand with engines shut down. How on earth the light aircraft fraternity manage with one hand on the stick and another on their chinagraph is beyond me - slow down please !
5. The 'guard police' are still at it all over the world - we all make mistakes, don't get so punchy !
6. Do the Americans actually go on a course of instruction to adopt that lazy comfortable southern drawl
And finally, last night I followed an Easyjet airbus all the way from Turkey to the UK. The poor kid in presumably the RHS, managed to screw up every RT call from the eastern Med to blighty. It became quite amusing after a while; his Captain must have been giving him a very hard time or was 'resting' after a long day. Don't worry son, you will get there in the end !
1. At the end of a long dark night across the pond, none of us are as sharp as we might like to be and that results in a little lax RT - our colonial cousins are not the only culprits by a long way.
2. The shambolic situation at Spanish airports continues unabated. In busy ATC environments, the use of local language reduces dramatically pilots understanding of who is where in the sky. It is not because they cannot speak English, it is because they cannot be bothered to do so or are making some political point.
3. Some GA pilots in the UK, when talking to major ATC units on those weekend afternoons are far too verbose and need to learn not only when to speak but also how much to say.
4. Why do ATIS broadcasts in the US need to be made at such a frenetic pace ? At Sanford it usually takes me about three runs to get all the information down and that is sitting on stand with engines shut down. How on earth the light aircraft fraternity manage with one hand on the stick and another on their chinagraph is beyond me - slow down please !
5. The 'guard police' are still at it all over the world - we all make mistakes, don't get so punchy !
6. Do the Americans actually go on a course of instruction to adopt that lazy comfortable southern drawl
And finally, last night I followed an Easyjet airbus all the way from Turkey to the UK. The poor kid in presumably the RHS, managed to screw up every RT call from the eastern Med to blighty. It became quite amusing after a while; his Captain must have been giving him a very hard time or was 'resting' after a long day. Don't worry son, you will get there in the end !
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Native English v International english
I work in the engine room on a multinationaly-crewed ship. All the Bulgarains, Croatians, Filipinos, Indians etc seem to communicate very well in a subset of English. As a native English speaker it is I who has the most difficulty, especially when it is noisy - I tend to lose concentration when poor grammar is used even though it does not affect the sense. So I must learn the pidgin!
On another point, listening to some Americans is like trying to read a book with no punctuation, it's all delivered in a flat monotone with no pitch changes or pauses to let you figure out the phrase and sentances!
On another point, listening to some Americans is like trying to read a book with no punctuation, it's all delivered in a flat monotone with no pitch changes or pauses to let you figure out the phrase and sentances!
Last edited by mross; 14th Jul 2013 at 09:34.
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The American southern d r a w l, is no worse than a thick scotch accent.
The rapid fire Indian chatter with everything but the colour of the ship drives me nuts and hinders the rest of us trying to get a word in edgewise.
the nasal monotone of the Taiwanese is not always easy to understand. Mainland Chinese is sometimes bloody impossible. Throw in a thick Aussie accent, that throws me for a loop now and then. Oh wait, how about Yangoon, yikes!
If ya fly around the world a lot, get used to it! thats part of the fun.
Enough of the pedants and rants, get a life!
The rapid fire Indian chatter with everything but the colour of the ship drives me nuts and hinders the rest of us trying to get a word in edgewise.
the nasal monotone of the Taiwanese is not always easy to understand. Mainland Chinese is sometimes bloody impossible. Throw in a thick Aussie accent, that throws me for a loop now and then. Oh wait, how about Yangoon, yikes!
If ya fly around the world a lot, get used to it! thats part of the fun.
Enough of the pedants and rants, get a life!
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It's not Yank bashing by the way. It's poor RT bashing and applies to more than America. Just in case some poor under confident American gets upset again.
Last edited by Lord Spandex Masher; 14th Jul 2013 at 09:41.
If you want to understand why American pilots have so much trouble with standard RT, watch a film called "Idiocracy" starring Luke Wilson. It illustrates the direction in which the USA in general is headed and especially their grasp of verbal communication.
Like a lot of their TV, Yank RT seems "cool" but bears little resemblance to reality.
Yank RT Translation:
Okaaaaay = I am about to start speaking,
...is with you = I am on your frequency in case this isn't obvious by me transmitting,
checkin' in = I am on your frequency in case this isn't obvious by me transmitting,
two one point three = Passing flight level 213 or maybe flight level 21.3 (2130 ft ???)- who knows??
twenny eight fourteen = Squawking 2814
with the flash = with ident. Not a required call anyway.
lookin' fer lower = Request further descent
Unnerstand one five oh = read back with no acceptance of responsibilty - I only understand the clearance to be XXXXX and it's your fault if I have it wrong.
oh = zero
Twenny three an' a quarter = one two three decimal two five
An' = and
Maintain two five oh = maintain heading 250 or maybe FL250 or maybe 250 KIAS. Who knows??
Look at Flying Tiger 66 for an example of crap RT leading to a crash.
The USA may have the best safety record as someone claimed (I doubt it) but sadly they also have the record for the dumbest causes of accidents:
Looking for spare light bulbs, teasing the FO, reversing out of an iced-in parking bay with reverse thrust (!!??), no flaps for take off while chatting the stewardess, etc, reading back 2400 as 400 feet, many more.
Use it at home, leave it at home if you're going to fly in the rest of the world!
Like a lot of their TV, Yank RT seems "cool" but bears little resemblance to reality.
Yank RT Translation:
Okaaaaay = I am about to start speaking,
...is with you = I am on your frequency in case this isn't obvious by me transmitting,
checkin' in = I am on your frequency in case this isn't obvious by me transmitting,
two one point three = Passing flight level 213 or maybe flight level 21.3 (2130 ft ???)- who knows??
twenny eight fourteen = Squawking 2814
with the flash = with ident. Not a required call anyway.
lookin' fer lower = Request further descent
Unnerstand one five oh = read back with no acceptance of responsibilty - I only understand the clearance to be XXXXX and it's your fault if I have it wrong.
oh = zero
Twenny three an' a quarter = one two three decimal two five
An' = and
Maintain two five oh = maintain heading 250 or maybe FL250 or maybe 250 KIAS. Who knows??
Look at Flying Tiger 66 for an example of crap RT leading to a crash.
The USA may have the best safety record as someone claimed (I doubt it) but sadly they also have the record for the dumbest causes of accidents:
Looking for spare light bulbs, teasing the FO, reversing out of an iced-in parking bay with reverse thrust (!!??), no flaps for take off while chatting the stewardess, etc, reading back 2400 as 400 feet, many more.
Use it at home, leave it at home if you're going to fly in the rest of the world!
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RT should be of a high standard at all international airfields. (Real ones that is; half the little towns in the States have "international" fields.
There is no place for high-speed drawl, be it on ATIS or on ATC comms.
To be fair, the same applies worldwide. Many female Turkish controllers are not understandable due to their high-pitched monotonal delivery. And as for Mumbai..........
There is no place for high-speed drawl, be it on ATIS or on ATC comms.
To be fair, the same applies worldwide. Many female Turkish controllers are not understandable due to their high-pitched monotonal delivery. And as for Mumbai..........
Last edited by Mr.Bloggs; 14th Jul 2013 at 10:10.
I love threads like these, because that gives me the opportunity to say, that everyone should just do like the danes, 
STD ICAO - no exceptions, no excuses.
All Professionals speak English at all times, and the ATC is by far the best in the world. (Though ill admit with a less complicated starting point, than ie. London.)
I have always found it inherently funny that the brits, have to have exeptions because they of course know better than everyone else,
and the americans dont really care as long as it works back home. (Which is why they are probably alright with PRISM as it is only targeted at foreigners
)
The best part about the exceptions are that they "exported" and used outside the homepond.
The americans say "xxx Heavy" everywhere, and the brits feel obliged to tell departure on which SID, pass alt, cleared level they are to everyone,
eventhough nobody seem to care outside the UK.
(And before any dutch start rambling about ATC in AMS which is good, sorry but a bit to gash generally !! )
STD ICAO - no exceptions, no excuses.
All Professionals speak English at all times, and the ATC is by far the best in the world. (Though ill admit with a less complicated starting point, than ie. London.)
I have always found it inherently funny that the brits, have to have exeptions because they of course know better than everyone else,
and the americans dont really care as long as it works back home. (Which is why they are probably alright with PRISM as it is only targeted at foreigners
)The best part about the exceptions are that they "exported" and used outside the homepond.
The americans say "xxx Heavy" everywhere, and the brits feel obliged to tell departure on which SID, pass alt, cleared level they are to everyone,
eventhough nobody seem to care outside the UK.
(And before any dutch start rambling about ATC in AMS which is good, sorry but a bit to gash generally !!
)
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Enjoyed reading the back and forth on this thread!
If I had a quid for every time an American or Canadian pilot read back a clearance/instruction in exactly the same, standard form as I'd transmitted to them, I'd have zero quid.
You have nothing to prove, we know you're much cooler than the rest of us, but please stop needlessly over-complicating everything and start joining in with keeping it simple!
From a whiny, pedant of a London ATCO.
P.S. I love both America and Canada, your people (women), and your cultures. I especially love Reese's peanut butter cups, really good work on them.
If I had a quid for every time an American or Canadian pilot read back a clearance/instruction in exactly the same, standard form as I'd transmitted to them, I'd have zero quid.
You have nothing to prove, we know you're much cooler than the rest of us, but please stop needlessly over-complicating everything and start joining in with keeping it simple!
From a whiny, pedant of a London ATCO.
P.S. I love both America and Canada, your people (women
), and your cultures. I especially love Reese's peanut butter cups, really good work on them.