Standard of RT in USA
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Standard of RT in USA
I know thesis likely to be a contentious thread, but the standard of American RT has been raised a few times in the SFO crash thread.
I have no idea if the USA has filed ICAO differences in respect of their ATC RT comms, but either way 50% of what they speak bears absolutely no resemblance to the norms around the rest of the world, or ICAO.
It amazes me how non English speakers can grasp what is actually meant when so many non standard or slang abbreviations are used. A few of the worlds busiest airports are located outside of America and yet they manage to communicate without the use of non standard slang, so, in the interests of safety, isn't it about time this issue was addressed?
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I have no idea if the USA has filed ICAO differences in respect of their ATC RT comms, but either way 50% of what they speak bears absolutely no resemblance to the norms around the rest of the world, or ICAO.
It amazes me how non English speakers can grasp what is actually meant when so many non standard or slang abbreviations are used. A few of the worlds busiest airports are located outside of America and yet they manage to communicate without the use of non standard slang, so, in the interests of safety, isn't it about time this issue was addressed?
Ready for incoming flack!
Fact 1: On any given day there is more airliners flying in North America than anywhere else in the world.
Fact 2: North American airlines have the lowest accident rate anywhere
Maybe it is time for European operators, especially the British ones, to realize their culture of arrogance and self righteousness makes them incapable of learning from others
As for whose ATC works better, well I will take US ATC over the screwed up, inefficient, Balkanized mess that is Euro Control, any day
Fact 2: North American airlines have the lowest accident rate anywhere
Maybe it is time for European operators, especially the British ones, to realize their culture of arrogance and self righteousness makes them incapable of learning from others
As for whose ATC works better, well I will take US ATC over the screwed up, inefficient, Balkanized mess that is Euro Control, any day
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We live here and like it. Had a flight into TGU Honduras once and our AA flight, a 757' was put in a hold at the FAF so they could let a Spanish speaking prop plane fly through our holding pattern at our holding altitude in the clouds. Of course we couldn't understand what they were saying so realizing by TCAS we were joining up with them at the fix in non radar turned away from our clearance to avoid a conflict.
Which is worse? A midair because of not using the international language for ATC or a bit of local slang? Out of 16.5 for 350 pales vs a midair.
Which is worse? A midair because of not using the international language for ATC or a bit of local slang? Out of 16.5 for 350 pales vs a midair.
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Fact 1: On any given day there is more airliners flying in North America than anywhere else in the world.
Fact 2: North American airlines have the lowest accident rate anywhere
Maybe it is time for European operators, especially the British ones, to realize their culture of arrogance and self righteousness makes them incapable of learning from others
As for whose ATC works better, well I will take US ATC over the screwed up, inefficient, Balkanized mess that is Euro Control, any day
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Fact 2: North American airlines have the lowest accident rate anywhere
Maybe it is time for European operators, especially the British ones, to realize their culture of arrogance and self righteousness makes them incapable of learning from others
As for whose ATC works better, well I will take US ATC over the screwed up, inefficient, Balkanized mess that is Euro Control, any day
Big Pistons Forever is online now Report Post
Deefers
Does the UK have any variances (or whatever the proper term is) from ICAO standard phraseology? I've seen this discussed and I believe the answer was yes. Perhaps you should focus your efforts on your own countries procedures and RT before you worry about anyone else.
Does the UK have any variances (or whatever the proper term is) from ICAO standard phraseology? I've seen this discussed and I believe the answer was yes. Perhaps you should focus your efforts on your own countries procedures and RT before you worry about anyone else.
The US system is about making it work rather than following to the letter the musings of some ICAO RT sub comittee. When you have the sheer volume of traffic that the US has on frequency at times the whole ICAO proceedures dont actually work as they are to verbose. As said before it's not like they are banging in airliners all that often. In recent times I have heard even domestic Australian pilots breakout the US RT proceedures when frequencies get congested. Seems to work much better!
Last edited by neville_nobody; 11th Jul 2013 at 23:31.
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It seems that about every other year or so, someone starts a thread about how terrible the US ATC system's language use is.
Well, the FAA is slowly changing it more in compliance with ICAO standards. Not because of 99 percent of the air traffic that is in US airspace everyday, but for the one percent of foreign crews that fly in US airspace, domestically, on any given day. The Pacific region of Oakland Center would be an exception, as it controls nearly the entire North Pacific airspace from California to Japan, China and the Philippines.
So sorry, learn to live with it. We are doing a lot more to change than anyone else is.
Also, with my experience in international flying, which is considerable, the US still has the best ATC system and controllers. With London ATC a very close second.
As for Euro Control, what a joke that is. Until there is a single ATC system in Europe, it is still in the dark ages of aviation.
Now awaiting for incoming.
Well, the FAA is slowly changing it more in compliance with ICAO standards. Not because of 99 percent of the air traffic that is in US airspace everyday, but for the one percent of foreign crews that fly in US airspace, domestically, on any given day. The Pacific region of Oakland Center would be an exception, as it controls nearly the entire North Pacific airspace from California to Japan, China and the Philippines.
So sorry, learn to live with it. We are doing a lot more to change than anyone else is.
Also, with my experience in international flying, which is considerable, the US still has the best ATC system and controllers. With London ATC a very close second.
As for Euro Control, what a joke that is. Until there is a single ATC system in Europe, it is still in the dark ages of aviation.
Now awaiting for incoming.
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West Coast, yes, the UK has filed differences. Not many, but one or two. All member states are quite entitled to file differences, that is the way the system works so that all users of it know what to expect, and what different phrases actually mean when heard depending on where they operate around the world.
The point I am making is simply this. In the US the phraseology is completely non standard to that agreed in the convention and bears no relationship to any differences filed. Whichever way you look at it, and as painful as it may feel, your system of not complying with agreed conventions increases the likelihood of confusion, especially when operators whose native language is not English have to disseminate slang. Confusion in a busy ATC environment is not what any of us want.
Put simply, if you sign up and agree to a convention, why not honour it?
The point I am making is simply this. In the US the phraseology is completely non standard to that agreed in the convention and bears no relationship to any differences filed. Whichever way you look at it, and as painful as it may feel, your system of not complying with agreed conventions increases the likelihood of confusion, especially when operators whose native language is not English have to disseminate slang. Confusion in a busy ATC environment is not what any of us want.
Put simply, if you sign up and agree to a convention, why not honour it?
Last edited by deefer dog; 11th Jul 2013 at 23:39.
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American ATC is great for Americans. And the place is so big they (understandably) don't see any point in adjusting for the rest of the world. Of course this is a problem for the rest of the world when they come to visit, or receive visits for that matter.
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Neville, good point.
I can't speak to flying in the UK but, down under, they certainly aren't immune to straying from ICAO or even the English language...(i.e., "shock" intersection.) Did someone steal the r's from the Ausssie controllers? Just kidding really but, if you're not from the USA, don't think for a moment that we have the market cornered on colloquialisms.
I can't speak to flying in the UK but, down under, they certainly aren't immune to straying from ICAO or even the English language...(i.e., "shock" intersection.) Did someone steal the r's from the Ausssie controllers? Just kidding really but, if you're not from the USA, don't think for a moment that we have the market cornered on colloquialisms.
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Qantas never crashed
In the interests of accuracy, Phraseology & Hollywood et al, i think you'll find it was Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man who would only fly Queensland & Northern Territory Air Services...
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Perhaps because you need to?
Your gash RT might also explain why 99% of Americans find it hard to understand correct RT and simple English terms like:
"American # direct Romeo Lima Papa"
"Eeerrrrrr say again"
"Direct Romeo Lima Papa"
"Errrrr how do you spell that?"
"ROOOMMMEEEOOOO LLLIIIIIMMMMAAAAA PPAAAAPPPAAAA"
"Okay maaaaam direct Vesan"
Heard today.
Your gash RT might also explain why 99% of Americans find it hard to understand correct RT and simple English terms like:
"American # direct Romeo Lima Papa"
"Eeerrrrrr say again"
"Direct Romeo Lima Papa"
"Errrrr how do you spell that?"
"ROOOMMMEEEOOOO LLLIIIIIMMMMAAAAA PPAAAAPPPAAAA"
"Okay maaaaam direct Vesan"
Heard today.
I like it deefer, you admit the UK has differences from the ICAO standard, yet you glaze over that to bitch about the US despite it having the most traffic. Work on your own country. When it moves as much traffic as the US, then talk to me. The UK last I checked didn't even crack the top 10 as far as busiest airports as measured in aircraft operations. France has busier airports.
Fix your own before you feel entitled to complain about the one that moves the most.
Fix your own before you feel entitled to complain about the one that moves the most.
Spandex
I've heard speed bird among other euro carriers dork up clearances in the US many times, even the most basic ones at a straight forward airport like LAX. Get off your high horse.
I've heard speed bird among other euro carriers dork up clearances in the US many times, even the most basic ones at a straight forward airport like LAX. Get off your high horse.