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Standard of RT in USA

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Standard of RT in USA

Old 31st Jul 2013, 15:25
  #301 (permalink)  
 
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You're right that ICAO cannot impose the rules. However, by being a signatory to the Chicago Convention, states are obliged to either comply with ICAO SARPs or file Differences. Either way, states concerned are responsible for ensuring compliance with their own regulations.

A quick gander through the US AIP (GEN 1.7-23) gives an idea of their filed differences. I don't see too much of the verbage previously quoted being a notified difference. Perhaps the question should be directed at the FAA as far as standardisation is concerned?

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...bs/AIP/aip.pdf
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Old 31st Jul 2013, 15:58
  #302 (permalink)  
 
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Having searched that .pdf, I can't find anything that allows a 'difference' in respect of unofficial, casual, informal RT either.

But then I controlled, and spoke, 'by the book' as I am a boring old sod, not a cabaret act.
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Old 1st Aug 2013, 01:38
  #303 (permalink)  
 
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There's a video available on youtube.com of the atc from the 777 crash at Heathrow a few years ago. The whole thing is impressive and professional but there's one bit that stands out that I think kind of illustrates the type of thing we're talking about and that some American pilots might find just a little bit over the top.

You can hear the tower controller go through the procedures in a very well rehearsed flowchart like manner giving the details to emergency crews and at one point he says something along the lines of "type of problem is crash, aircraft has crashed...".....if you listen to it you'll see what I mean.

In the US they might go something like "Boeing 777 crash at the threshold of 27L, immediately dispatch emergency vehicles to the incident"....or something along those lines. They'll have guidelines and procedures but they won't necessarily have a rigid sequence of steps where it's stated that there's an aircraft accident then later on that the accident is a crash.

Again not a criticism it all worked out great but it does illustrate the different ways of thinking and how that tends to translate to RT procedure.
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Old 1st Aug 2013, 14:45
  #304 (permalink)  
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From the FAA...

National regulations and practices concerning
facilitation of international air transport are being
carried out at all international airports as far as
possible in accordance with the provisions set forth in
the Standards and Recommended Practices of
Annex 9 to the Convention on International Civil
Aviation. Differences from certain Annex 9 provisions
exist only in those cases where it has not yet
been possible to amend national legislation accordingly.
Continuous efforts are being made to eliminate
these differences.
(my bold)
Clearly the FAA agree with the principal that global standarization is in everyone's interest; unlike the few vociferous posters here who feel that the USA has a right to run the show any way they choose in their home region.
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Old 1st Aug 2013, 20:23
  #305 (permalink)  
 
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Rhetoric is cheap. I expect little to no change.
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 02:46
  #306 (permalink)  
 
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Back in the '80s some Flying Tiger aces planted a B747 into a hill at WMSA old Subang Kuala Lumpur international airport because they descended to 400ft instead of the cleared altitude of two thousand four hundred feet. After that ( and a lot of hoo haa, hand wringing and racist protestations ) ICAO recommended against using the phrase " cleared to " as the then KUL ATC had cleared those guys with the instructions" cleared two four zero zero feet " which was two thousand four hunderd feet, but the Flying Tigers crew misinterpreted that as "cleared to four zero zero feet ".

Well it was poor sitiation awareness as the charted initial approach altitude was 2400 feet and the misinterpreted four zero zero feet was too low an altitude to be an initial approach altitude...they were cleared ILS approach, certainly not a GCA approach. They had 3 crew members from the USA and yet the error chain was not broken! And we have numbskulls on the OZ214 crash thread wondering how that tragic accident could have happened!!! Nobody then made the claim that American aviators were piss poor pilots.

Last edited by jandakotcruiser; 2nd Aug 2013 at 16:53.
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 02:49
  #307 (permalink)  
 
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And that would be because......there were no Internet thingy then.
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 04:32
  #308 (permalink)  
 
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Some fun read in this thread. I particularly loved the Heathrow controller saying none of us could manage it.

In my 23 years working at New York Approach, I've heard just about every accent, or slang there is. The worst ones to communicate with have always been Asian carriers, though some South American carriers have been just as bad. Rarely do I have any issues with European carriers, with probably the Polish, and Russians being the notable exceptions.
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 04:34
  #309 (permalink)  
 
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Said by a New Yorker. Priceless. Surely the point is that phraseology needs to be standard because of the various accents?

(PS. my SW Irish accent is just perfect!)

Last edited by Cows getting bigger; 2nd Aug 2013 at 04:35.
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 04:39
  #310 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not a native New Yorker!

Last edited by N90-EWR; 2nd Aug 2013 at 04:39.
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 10:35
  #311 (permalink)  
 
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Standard vs Standardisation

Personally I think (understandably) some US guys here are reacting as they feel their STANDARD of R/T and hence Op's is being criticised. Personally, that is not MY point which is just that WORLDWIDE STANDARDISATION should be enforced for all the good reasons. Everyone the same, every call made meeting the receivers expected list of possibles in their circumstances with a solid confirmation of clearances, no room for misinterpretation.

"Bad Standards" is an accusation any professional would get annoyed about.

"Lets STANDARDISE" should be more palatable or even (arguably) an unarguable step to take.
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Old 2nd Aug 2013, 13:46
  #312 (permalink)  
 
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Even the ICAO doesn't aspire to that goal of 100% worldwide compliance. How many variances (the proper term escapes me-kinda ironic) do individual countries enjoy, each of which divurges from the goal.

I recognize that many of the changes are necessary for local needs.
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Old 3rd Aug 2013, 03:01
  #313 (permalink)  
 
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I rarely have any issues with foreign crews about communication. If anything, my biggest complain with certain foreign airlines is slowing down below 250 knots 40 to 50 miles from the airport without telling me, and also not maintaining assigned airspeeds on final. If you're not able to maintain 170 knots to the final approach fix, then tell me, so that I can plan adequate spacing behind.
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Old 3rd Aug 2013, 04:46
  #314 (permalink)  
 
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Back in the '80s some Flying Tiger aces planted a B747 into a hill at WMSA old Subang Kuala Lumpur international airport because they descended to 400ft instead of the cleared altitude of two thousand four hundred feet. After that ( and a lot of hoo haa, hand wringing and racist protestations ) ICAO recommended against using the phrase " cleared to " as the then KUL ATC had cleared those guys with the instructions" cleared two four zero zero feet " which was two thousand four hunderd feet, but the Flying Tigers crew misinterpreted that as "cleared to four zero zero feet ".

Well it was poor sitiation awareness as the charted initial approach altitude was 2400 feet and the misinterpreted four zero zero feet was too low an altitude to be an initial approach altitude...they were cleared ILS approach, certainly not a GCA approach. They had 3 crew members from the USA and yet the error chain was not broken! And we have numbskulls on the OZ214 crash thread wondering how that tragic accident could have happened!!! Nobody then made the claim that American aviators were piss poor pilots.
It is clearly understood as a mis-communication and a moron agreement to recieve clearance "to 400", yeah they paid the ultimate price for one of many global dumbass moves. Two Four Zero would have saved this flight, agree a damnb tired crew hearing "to 400" was complacent. None the less it is no excuse for the lack of global adhereance to a common form of communication, thus cpdlc etc. God save the tired and retarded....

Last edited by grounded27; 3rd Aug 2013 at 04:56. Reason: jandakotcruiser
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Old 3rd Aug 2013, 04:49
  #315 (permalink)  
 
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I haven't flown with a Yank in over two years. I have been flying with Euro "level 6" guys. Most can hardly order a beer in an english speaking country and basic communications inside and outside the cockpit are strained. The problem is the corrupt EASA system where people can basically buy icao level 6 in SPAIN???? SPAIN!!!! Actually, as far as im concerned, the whole euro aviation system is corrupted. There is no system to develop and weed out lesser candidates. The one who pays the Euro gets the job, not the most suitable candidate. Now, products of this same convoluted, ineffective and over-regulated mess is lashing out at the country that invented flying in a pathetic attempt to mask their own faults and failures. Next time you need American help, make sure you stop all the B-17 crews before their daylight bombing raids and give them some lessons in RT from ur handbook you keep in your flight case. The language is English, not German and you're welcome.
Even the Brits have a hard time with their own accents at smaller northern airports. But hey, Americans invented aviation but the Brits perfected it right?
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Old 3rd Aug 2013, 05:09
  #316 (permalink)  
 
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Standard...

1 wun

2 too

3 tree

4 fower

5 fife

6 siks

7 seven

8 ait

9 niner

0 zeero

Has this been lost?
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Old 3rd Aug 2013, 05:46
  #317 (permalink)  
 
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4Runner

4Runner - oh, dear. Did we have a bad day?
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Old 3rd Aug 2013, 08:28
  #318 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 4runner View Post
Next time you need American help, make sure you stop all the B-17 crews before their daylight bombing raids and give them some lessons in RT from ur handbook you keep in your flight case. The language is English, not German and you're welcome.
That is some funny stuff, I just spit my morning coffee on my keyboard!

Last edited by stratofactor; 3rd Aug 2013 at 08:29.
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Old 3rd Aug 2013, 10:52
  #319 (permalink)  
 
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Next time you need American help, make sure you stop all the B-17 crews before their daylight bombing raids and give them some lessons in RT from ur handbook you keep in your flight case.
Funnily enough I was listening to the (KC-135s?) coming back from missions in Iraq, through into the Eastern Med. Mission in enemy airspace went fine, but boy were they in a tizz with ATC transmissions. Everything was given and re-given four times, and still they did not get it.

Never mind the SAM evasion course, how about a course in standard RT phraseology and a guide book to Eastern Mediterranean accents?? "Aaarrrrr - Reach 3-4, say that again sloowwwly...."
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Old 3rd Aug 2013, 12:46
  #320 (permalink)  
 
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"This is triple nickle, eight ball, five in the slot, boots on and laced, ready to bounce and blow"

Translation: "This is (call sign) 558, five miles out, established ILS, request touch and go"
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