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Standard of RT in USA

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Standard of RT in USA

Old 27th Jul 2013, 18:15
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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A7700:
So your theory is that if Nobody understands ATC equally, we'll all be better off.
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Old 27th Jul 2013, 18:31
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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As a retired career Mil ATCO, I've learned how Americans speak and handled a 4-ship of Italian F-104s descending through the London TMA. I've coped with mispronunciation, gibberish and unclear emergency messages.

I helped run the Instrument Schools at USAF bases in UK, teaching the new guys how different things are. Our Unit even had a USAFLO to enhance coordination.

If everyone would just slow down, and realise where they are, life gets quite easy. Is that too much to ask? Or do we all sit in a oersonal space?
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Old 27th Jul 2013, 18:32
  #243 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by obgraham View Post
A7700:
So your theory is that if Nobody understands ATC equally, we'll all be better off.
No.
His theory is that it "will put all actors at the same level of humbleness ...not sure that this last word is understood by native speakers!"

And you kind of inadvertently proved his point (unless you are not a native English speaker)
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Old 27th Jul 2013, 19:33
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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In general , i am of the opinion that English should not be used as a so called common language for ATC exchange, as it creates -and will always creates- a distortion between those who get it as a native language and....the majority represented by rest of the world!. A common LEARNED language like Esperanto will put all actors at the same level of humbleness ...not sure that this last word is understood by native speakers!
No. Everyone should do like scientists, and switch to Latin! Since it's a dead language and never changes! Very telling, that you brought up Esperanto. It was a language concocted back when the Sun never set on the British Empire, to cut down on the "arrogance of the British", since their language was spoken in many parts of the world, so, this means the real problem many have with this issue, isn't so much the differences within the English language, but that your "self esteem" is hurt, because your language is not the standard. Your melancholy selves would rather everyone be dragged down to your level of misery, than accepting and improving the way things are. Some language had to become the standard. A few slight changes in history, and it could have easily been French, Spanish, Portuguese, or some other language.
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Old 28th Jul 2013, 09:03
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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There is a feeling you get when you go to England that they all think the worlds English is their English. What a shame it hasn't been that way for at least 300 years now. But we shouldn't be harsh on them - they are European and see the world differently.
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 00:34
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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Fellow Aviators,

How is this issue any different from a foreign language being spoken in that country's native tongue? When I fly in China I here Chineese being spoken, French in france, Africanz in south Africa.

If you address a contoller in the propper vernacular, you should be replied to in the same. As a habit, when outside the US I repeat ATC instructions verbatim. I routinely ask the people I fly with to avoid the colloquialisms of the US, as they are often met with a repeat of the ATC transmision (or Silence). In some countries the only engilsh the ATC personnel speak are the words required to be spoken and their meanings, nothing else.

It has been my experience that some of the things done outside the US could help inside the US and vive verse.
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 01:44
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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I'm surprised that in these pages and pages of comments, nobody has mentioned the stupid "Line up and wait" that we've had to adopt in the US as result of the inane ICAO rules. What in the world was wrong with "Taxi into position and hold".? Answer: Nothing.

"Line up and wait" sounds more like the status of life in the UK, where people apparently like to queue up like sheep. Or more like the story of my life.

ICAO - remember, these are the people who brought you METAR -- another useless improvement over the SA and other reports we had in the US previously.

Please ICAO, keep your "improvements" on the other side of the pond...
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 01:51
  #248 (permalink)  
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Just be happy that when we call the center in the states, they don't respond with "Pass your message"
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 03:49
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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Acroguy

So you join PPRuNe in 2007, wait 6 years to formulate a pithy, meaningful, thought provoking post of substance..... and that's it? What you need old son is a nice cuppa tea.
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 07:01
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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Line up and wait
4 words.

4 syllables.


Taxi into position and hold
5 words.

9 syllables.


I know which I prefer
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 07:15
  #251 (permalink)  
 
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Do the 'Merikans still use Inches of Mercury or have they caught on that the Hectopascal is now all the rage?

If ever there is an industry that needs international standards, it is aviation.

Last edited by Cows getting bigger; 29th Jul 2013 at 07:16.
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 11:50
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Line up and wait
4 words.

4 syllables.


Quote:
Taxi into position and hold
5 words.

9 syllables.


I know which I prefer
Prior to the change, you would hear clearances such as "Taxi into position runway 1, keep it moving, be ready to go following the Learjet crossing right to left."

After the change, what is the controller supposed to do, issue a clearance like, "Line up and wait, keep it moving...?" Yep, that's really clear. I have never heard a clearance like the first one since the change.

As to ICAO standard English in Europe, I have done quite a bit of flying in the south of France -- always with a French pilot since there is not a word of English to be heard...
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 12:23
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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Cows get bigger,

We'll move over to millibars when everyone STANDARDIZES on one transition altitude, may I suggest FL180 and 17,000'?
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 12:33
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, I would be happy with that. :0 However, millibars seemed to have disappeared a year or two back.
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 12:35
  #255 (permalink)  
 
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If ever there is an industry that needs international standards, it is aviation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there ARE international standards. Trouble is, the US doesn't follow them!
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 12:50
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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We'll move over to millibars when everyone STANDARDIZES on one transition altitude, may I suggest FL180 and 17,000'?
UK and Ireland consult on a common transition level

GF, get ready for the hectopascal...

At least we all have "fish finders" these days if one was to mis set the sub scale...
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 14:02
  #257 (permalink)  
 
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Line up and wait
4 words.

4 syllables.


Quote:
Taxi into position and hold
5 words.

9 syllables.


I know which I prefer
And then of course the real reason -"hold" can be mistaken for "roll"
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 14:53
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Line up and wait
4 words.

4 syllables.


Quote:
Taxi into position and hold
5 words.

9 syllables.


I know which I prefer
And then of course the real reason -"hold" can be mistaken for "roll"
"Taxi into position and roll?" Are you kidding?

That was never in anybody's controller syllabus...
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 22:11
  #259 (permalink)  
 
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And then of course the real reason -"hold" can be mistaken for "roll"
I thought the reason for the change was that virtually all countries use "hold" (in a ground manoeuvring context) to mean "do not enter the runway"? It's an important enough instruction that it should not have any other uses in a similar context, just as "take off" is replaced with "departure" in all R/T except the actual delivery of the take off clearance.
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Old 29th Jul 2013, 22:13
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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It maybe only 3 countries using inches, vice millibars, but the USA has just short of 50% of all flying, which counts for something. Canada uses proper inches, too.

It's just a flip of the switch, anyway.

Last edited by galaxy flyer; 29th Jul 2013 at 22:22.
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